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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

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Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#311

Post by grecy »

stephenr wrote: post #215

I'm not quite sure I understand. Do Americans not look at what's coming from behind them before opening a slab of metal and glass a meter out the side of their cars? Kind of reminds me of when I first moved to Thailand. My (now) mother-in-law asked her daughter why I kept looking over my shoulder when driving her car, and why/if I couldn't use the side mirrors. She had literally never heard of nor understood the conc…

> She had literally never heard of nor understood the concept of a blind spot.

I've done a good amount of driving in the undeveloped and developing world (40k miles AK->Argentina, now 10k miles in West Africa, going to do about 80k)

Blindspots are not considered here. Driving is much more fluid, and you really only need to watch what is happening in front of you. After all, the car behind/beside you can see you much better than you can he, so just move over and he'll get out of the way.

If you're going to do something really strange (stop in the middle of the road, turn where you shouldn't, back out into flowing traffic) you just tap your horn and go ahead and do it. Everyone else is paying attention and will flow around you.

It really is a different way of thinking, and it's immensely impressive that everyone is paying enough attention to make it work really well (Traffic accidents are not common, and the driving conditions are so, so much more hectic than the developed world.)

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#312

Post by oneplane »

smartbit wrote: post #55

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

Another reason we don't have 'dooring' in The Netherlands is that we don't try to invent a funny new word for every tiny event or thing everywhere ever all the time ;-) Oh, and we don't open our doors unless we are parked.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#313

Post by mcv »

johanvts wrote: post #228
pjmlp wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only in The Netherlands, in most European cities actually. And if you go down to the Mediterranean countries even on motorbikes, not everyone wears on at least on city traffic. Regarding bike helmets, they usually only protect if you fall vertically on your head, making their protection capability highly questionable. They offer zero protection over getting hit by a car or falling off the bike.

That is simply not true, the helmet will be the first part of you head that touch the ground in almost any fall. Especially if you are using one of the more covering "skate" helmets. If you get hit by a car head on the helmet will also most likely be the first part of you head to hit the car. I would reverse your statement and say the helmet will only not protect your head if you fall at a horisontal, actually upward…

> That is simply not true, the helmet will be the first part of you head that touch the ground in almost any fall.

Citation needed.

From both personal experience and research I've seen about this, the head is rarely the first part to hit the ground. My brother did have a rare accident as a kid where his head hit the ground first and he had a concussion, but that's an exception.

And it's generally not hitting the ground that is the dangerous part in traffic accidents. Helmets don't do anything useful is the vast majority of accidents.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#314

Post by thaumasiotes »

tinco wrote: post #275
wobbleblob wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've tried driving in the Netherlands, you know why so many people prefer to ride a bike instead. Well maintained, but narrow and extremely busy roads, densely packed with tiny vehicles. Wearing a helmet while cycling in the Dutch bike lanes is a bit like wearing a helmet while walking on the side walk. I used to only wear it while racing. Since I had a bad crash after being hit in the eye by an insect, I wear a…

This comment is important in how it shows biking is totally different in The Netherlands. The first type of bike most non-Dutch think of when they hear 'bicycle', where the rider sits hunched forward poised to race is not even considered a regular bike here. If you go faster than 15mph you are basically considered to be comparable to a moped and doing it without a helmet is frowned upon even here. When you are not in…

> The fact that you can ride a bike without a helmet in The Netherlands is a sort of democratic miracle of the 70's where the public convinced the politicians to make bikes a first class mode of transport. The effect of this is that almost every road in The Netherlands has some sort of provision for bicycles, or has at least been considered to have some. And in most cases not just in the form of a line but actual infrastructures, curbs, asphalt

China must be a real paragon of democracy.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#315

Post by LeanderK »

kriro wrote: post #246
djsumdog wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of bicycles in The Netherlands is absolutely surreal. Both in major cities and out in the suburbs, bicycles are everywhere. I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Large cities in Germany or the UK or anywhere else I've seen cannot compare to the magnitude of people on bicycles in The Netherlands.

Interestingly, in Germany there are some bicycle "hub" cities the prototypical example would be the city of Münster. My very unscientific feeling is that it's mostly mid sized cities with a university campus (especially if it's a multilocation campus spread across the entire city like in Münster). Apart from the cities, there's also some pretty nice longer distance bike tracks. I belive Germany has one of the best bi…

its the same in karsruhe, Germany. Medium sized and a university campus (though not that many bicycles, it think 28% of all movement in the city is done by bicycle), but we are improving :D

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#316

Post by thwd »

alkonaut wrote: post #263
thwd wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about the American thing but what I do know is that while in Europe they teach us to turn our heads and bodies when driving, the modern world caught up with blindspotless mirrors and teach you to use them. It's much safer as people tended to turn their hands together with their bodies, effectively steering a car to the left when looking out the left window.

> blindspotless mirrors There are cars with 3 mirrors that don't have blind spots, without having some other tradeoff instead? That makes the blind spot radar/lidar/camera systems on new high-tech cars seem pretty dumb!

Yes, there are.

Difference is radar/lidar both emit the radiation they use to see themselves. It's hard to illuminate a car's outside completely from within the car.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#317

Post by virtualritz »

I Germany this is taught as 'Schulterblick' ('over the shoulder look') in driving school (which is mandatory in this country).

In general, you are taught to always use Schulterblick when:

1. Changing lanes.

2. Entering/exiting from/to a ramp.

3. Turning.

4. Getting out of a parking spot.

5. Opening a door to exit the car.

Modern rear mirrors are curved at the outer vertical edge to avoid any dead spot. This means just checking the mirror before you do any of the above should -- in theory --, be enough (except for some cases of 3).

But better safe than sorry.

An exception are trucks. They have a dead spot at the right which the driver can't check. Mercedes introduced a an electronic solution for this in 2014.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#318

Post by cerebellum42 »

closeparen wrote: post #189
School-Cotton wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People shouldn't be trying to drive and park in major city centers. Exceptions can be made for deliveries. I live in a major city and I don't have a car. Parking is no issue for me at all :)

Ah, but - astronomical housing costs in the small radius of convenient non-driving commutes to the downtown business district - exposure to high crime and dysfunctional public schools (possibly requiring the purchase of private K12) in said radius - travel times to common destinations by public transit 2-3x driving, meaning less engagement with the rest of the world or less free time - One of a) standing on a lurchin…

To be fair, a lot of these problems are induced by having such car-focused cities in the first place. That extreme focus on making cities car-compatible makes them less livable for every other user of the infrastructure (cyclists, pedestrians, public transport users).

In my opinion the right way to go would be to drastically improve public transport (so it actually IS a competitive option) and in an overlapping process reduce car infrastructure and replace it with pedestrian/cycling/public transport infrastructure.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#319

Post by mcv »

Scarblac wrote: post #196
Tharkun wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Letting 16 year olds drive is probably part of the problem. In more bicycle-friendly countries, kids start drinking before they start driving. Cycling to and from parties until they're at least 18. Hell, want to go anywhere at all? Cycle. It's a pretty effective cycling motivator.

Also getting taught by amateurs, that just isn't a thing in the Netherlands. You learn to drive in a modified car (extra set of brakes, extra mirrors) with a qualified instructor next to you.

Wait, do people in the US not use professional driving instructors in modified instruction cars? Doesn't that cause a lot of accidents?

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#320

Post by mcv »

Scarblac wrote: post #212
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside of that is that getting a license costs a lot more - think in the range of €1500 - €2500. But that too helps with having people take it seriously, and losing your license due to e.g. excessive speeding to hurt more.

And it's not as crucial to have one here, I only got my license at 35 (and now that I have kids, I'm really happy with it). That's not completely normal of course, but it'd be much harder to do in the US.

Plenty of city dwellers don't get their license until they have kids. I did that too. My brother doesn't have kids but only got his license when he was about 40.
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