The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it • Hacker News Board

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#311

Post by deciplex » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #207

"Hey, you voted against what we recommended to you, so now we will be telling you for the next 5 years that you are the stupid one that you don't even know what you voted against!" I don't get it - this is a prime example of democracy in action so why so much outrage? Do you rather want to live in technocracy/totality and allow voting "properly profiled" people only? "USSR is a great idea" anyone? Get over it, as muc…

"On balance democracy is a good thing" and "this electorate is utter shit" are not contradictory beliefs :-)

On the face of it this seems like a terrible idea, and certainly the politicians promoting it are fucking cretins of the lowest order. But, maybe we're wrong! After all, the people who generally voted Leave are the same folks who have not shared all that much in the prosperity created by global capitalism. Come to think of it, so are most of the folks who voted Remain. It gets a bit tiring, for the listener and the speaker, when one constantly blames so many of society's ills on wealth inequality and plutocracy, but wealth inequality and plutocracy are responsible for a lot of society's ills. I do take some solace in the fact that the rich will suffer the consequences of this referendum the same as the poor - however they can withstand it better than the poor, too. I don't think the average Briton is going to be better off for leaving the EU, but if this convinces the ruling class that they should try fucking everyone else over a little bit less (I doubt it will), maybe it will end up having been worth it.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#312

Post by keithpeter » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #192

Inthenameofmine wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

In the British Parliament, there are lines which separate the MPs on the two sides. These lines are a bit more than two swordlengths apart, to prevent them from stabbing each other.

And the Speaker has a nice big heavy club just in case...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/82544.stm

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#313

Post by mstade » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

Inthenameofmine wrote: post #276

mstade wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Direct democracy is something that has to be done regularly [...] I think there's a lot of truth to this. When referendums are seldom, I believe there's a real risk of them turning into spectacle. (And at worst, a weapon for use by nationalists and fascists, like what happened in Germany in the 30s.) When they are regular, and limited, and like in Switzerland not something pulled on a whim but actually requires som…

> When they are rare, and limited, and like in Switzerland not something pulled on a whim but actually requires some work to call, they might just work. In Switzerland you essentially vote on 2-5 issues every quarter. I think this very regularity has educated the people. It also helps that by law, if you vote on a proposal that would increase spending, you aso vote on how much your taxes increase. In the case of the…

Sorry, that should say "when they are regular" – not rare. Have edited my post.

Do you find the regularity of referendums naturally makes people more inclined to be educated on the issues at hand? Anecdata obviously, but nevertheless interesting.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#314

Post by zghst » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:38 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #280

zghst wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're against democracy because people had the right to decide what was in their interest and not the government or big business??

My take on it is that direct democracy doesn't make sense for this type of complex and nuanced decision. The general population isn't in the business of politics and scare tactics on both sides aren't going to educate them on the nuances and detailed implications of a decision like leaving the EU. That's why we vote for representatives who make it their job to understand, and vote accordingly -- representative democr…

What about decisions like electing the leader of the free world? The most powerful person on earth? Should that be left up to every day people?

I think that people should be able to make big decisions that effect them. Direct democracy is more useful than ever, the elites use our republic to manipulate people more than ever. They game the system and with no balance or checks on their power.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#315

Post by dazzawazza » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:38 PM UTC

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #192

Inthenameofmine wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

In the British Parliament, there are lines which separate the MPs on the two sides. These lines are a bit more than two swordlengths apart, to prevent them from stabbing each other.

This is regarded as a bit of a myth. Search for swords in this official PDF https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-information-offi....

MPs have never been able to carry weapons in to the chamber so if it was a rule it's a bit silly (which doesn't mean it's not true given how silly the rest of the UK democracy is).

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#316

Post by mafribe » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:39 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #288

super_id wrote: post #272

Didn't realize Stalin was doing TED talks now.

It is ridiculously reductive to claim that improving income inequality is a Stalinist policy.

But it's a policy Stalin and his ilk carried out, at near global level. With fairly disaterous results.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#317

Post by Chathamization » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:39 PM UTC

boundlessdreamz wrote: post #243

rayiner wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is fine. The intellectual class just needs to learn to respect it. There is pretty much nothing that deserves to be decided by the will of the people--their values, their emotions, their world views--than the question of "what body politic do I want to belong to?" The deep irony of the anti-Brexit narrative is that the same people would froth at the mouth if you said "India would've been better off economic…

I know the point you are trying to make but India wouldn't have been better off economically under British Empire. British decimated the Indian economy http://www.thehindu.com/2005/07/10/stories/2005071002301000.... As the painstaking statistical work of the Cambridge historian Angus Maddison has shown, India's share of world income collapsed from 22.6 per cent in 1700, almost equal to Europe's share of 23.3 per cent…

> India's share of world income collapsed from 22.6 per cent in 1700, almost equal to Europe's share of 23.3 per cent at that time, to as low as 3.8 per cent in 1952.

Not sure how useful this statistic is - it's including the collapse of the Mughal Empire in the early 1700's. British company rule is usually dated around the mid-1700's, with the British Raj starting in the mid-1800's. We're also looking at percentage of the global economy, so it's not clear how much of this is a decline in the Indian economy and how much is it not growing as fast as other countries.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#318

Post by 4ad » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

saynsedit wrote: post #282

mikeash wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reminds me of certain American voters saying they support Trump just because they want to tear the system down. I don't think they realize what tearing the system down would actually mean.

Do you know anyone personally who has said this?

I'm not the OP, but I know a few such people.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#319

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

boundlessdreamz wrote: post #243

rayiner wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is fine. The intellectual class just needs to learn to respect it. There is pretty much nothing that deserves to be decided by the will of the people--their values, their emotions, their world views--than the question of "what body politic do I want to belong to?" The deep irony of the anti-Brexit narrative is that the same people would froth at the mouth if you said "India would've been better off economic…

I know the point you are trying to make but India wouldn't have been better off economically under British Empire. British decimated the Indian economy http://www.thehindu.com/2005/07/10/stories/2005071002301000.... As the painstaking statistical work of the Cambridge historian Angus Maddison has shown, India's share of world income collapsed from 22.6 per cent in 1700, almost equal to Europe's share of 23.3 per cent…

[deleted]

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#320

Post by scrollaway » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

meric wrote: post #210

mikeash wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big chunk of Americans almost want it to be a police state, so they have something to fight against. It makes me think of Sam Altman's recent article about Trump. He said he was taking some risk by writing that, and some commenters here praised his bravery in taking a public stand on this. It's ridiculous. Bravery would be a prominent techie taking a stand for Trump. He's not going to suffer any consequence…

I got some really bad looks in my office building when some people overheard me telling a colleague I rather Clinton lose than Trump lose, due to her preference for fighting wars. One person looked at me like if they could kill me, he would, like I was some enemy. A lot of anti-Trump people accuse Trump supporters of bigotry and exclusion, but I think that's projection on their part. No, I don't feel comfortable writ…

> I think that's projection on their part

I'm sorry, what? You can certainly call it prejudice. There's plenty of trump supporters who aren't bigots, but there's also a lot of them who are, and Trump's campaign has been majorly based on demagoguery, bigotism and xenophobia.

If you're voicing/implying support for someone whose campaign is built on racism, don't be surprised if you're getting dirty looks.

As for dirty looks, that's what they are. You're accusing "the other side" of projection when you yourself are interpreting a look as "I want to kill you". Jeez.

Edit:

> But it's better for the rest of the world for Clinton to lose.

I appreciate the conendrum the US is facing in this election cycle, but if you're going to make decisions based on their worldwide implications, you should ask around in the rest of the world. Clinton is an inconsequential establishment politician; Trump is a loose cannon who "won't rule out using nukes in Europe". As someone living in said Europe, I really wonder how you got to that conclusion.