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David Cameron announces resignation

theguardian.com

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Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#311

Post by dragonwriter »

nicolapede wrote: post #305
dragonwriter wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So he leaves a big mess to his successor? I'm not a fan of Cameron (also, not British and don't have a particularly strong investment in this, though I tend to think Brexit was a bad idea for all involved), but I think there is a fair case to be made that leaving it to the next PM to trigger Article 50 is the right thing to do (promising an immediate trigger -- which was a scare tactic for the vote -- was a bad mov…

Also, what if the new PM has to pass through general elections? You might end up having someone which promises to trigger article 50 and someone who does not. A second referendum.

> Also, what if the new PM has to pass through general elections?

That shouldn't be necessary (the Conservatives have an outright majority, so their new leader should be able to form a government), but, yeah, it would significantly complicate things (especially if Cameron had triggered Article 50 before leaving.)

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#313

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

StrangeWhiff wrote: post #221
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At last UK farmers can sell their top quality fruit and vegetables to the rest of the world.

Not without trade agreements that may take years to negotiate. Also, UK farmers get over half their income from EU subsidies. So many of them are going to go bankrupt unless they get bailed out/supported by the government. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11967049/Brexit...

Sorry, I thought my sarcasm was evident. To anyone who's tasted UK-grown fruit and veg, it must be.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#314

Post by adwf »

Kliment wrote: post #310
DonaldFisk wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Scottish independence referendum had resulted in Scotland gaining independence from the UK (like Spain, then a EU country) and then applied to join, there might be a reason for Spain to worry, as that roughly mirrors the situation with Catalonia. If there's another Scottish independence referendum, Scotland would gain independence from a NON-EU country (UK) and then apply to join. This is similar to the situat…

It's also possible that Scotland's independence happens before or simultaneously with the UK's exit, in which case Scotland could remain a EU member by continuity. This would also be a good lifeline for the rest of the UK once they recover from their spell of madness - form a union with Scotland to sneak back in.

Another possibility is that we might have to hold an early general election now that Cameron has resigned. If the Conservatives lose, it's possible that the referendum loses it's legitimacy.

Very slim chance though, seeing as it was mostly the Labour heartland that voted for Leave.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#315

Post by vec »

pc86 wrote: post #306
Kurtz79 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They both rode (in turn) petty nationalism sentiments to further their own ambitions. I really don't think people's best interests have been served.

So is it better for a people to have their voice heard, and in that harm many of themselves, or to have their voice ignored "for the greater good?"

There's essentially no such thing as pure democracy at a national level. Even in cases of public referenda and ballot initiatives there's still a small group of (usually) professional bureaucrats of one variety or another that controls what questions are asked, how they are asked, and to whom.

Asking "the people to have their voice heard" on international organizations and trade agreements is particularly ill advised because those are "how" questions instead of "what" questions, and to a first approximation nobody actually cares about how. People care about whether their job is secure, or their groceries are affordable, or their culture is preserved.

Leaving the EU may or may not be a good idea for Britan, but crucially very few people really know whether it would or not. The level of specialized training necessary to reasonably predict the effects of leaving on any of the core interests that people do actually care about is prohibitively high. Directly asking whether to leave the EU is a bad idea because it doesn't capture what "the people" really want and it forces a specific course of action even when there may be safer and more effective methods for achieving the same ends.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#316

Post by jacquesm »

adwf wrote: post #314
Kliment wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also possible that Scotland's independence happens before or simultaneously with the UK's exit, in which case Scotland could remain a EU member by continuity. This would also be a good lifeline for the rest of the UK once they recover from their spell of madness - form a union with Scotland to sneak back in.

Another possibility is that we might have to hold an early general election now that Cameron has resigned. If the Conservatives lose, it's possible that the referendum loses it's legitimacy. Very slim chance though, seeing as it was mostly the Labour heartland that voted for Leave.

There is already talk about a second referendum and a ton of support is behind it.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#317

Post by vec »

qdog wrote: post #273
oldmanjay wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be fair here. Liberal bias requires people to either believe anyone with conservative leanings MUST be stupid or the received wisdom that liberal philosophies are naturally correct must be incomplete. There's no real choice here, every single person on earth will assume everyone else is stupid before assuming they may be wrong.

That's the exact opposite of liberal, "open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values." There are plenty of intelligent people in all parties, disagreeing with them doesn't make them idiots. Greenspan comes to mind, I think his basic market beliefs are wrong, but don't think he's an idiot, I have read his book. GW is a lot closer to idiot level because of his demeanor AND his actions, but…

There are two essential traits I look for in a leader. They should have goals that align with my own, and they should advocate for policies that could reasonably be expected further their goals. At least in American politics, I usually see the term "idiot" applied to politicians who pass the first test but fail the second.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#318

Post by gonvaled »

dragonwriter wrote: post #301
gonvaled wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UK gets to decide when they trigger the process but the 'official' process can't start until the UK triggers it. If the UK spends the next 15 years making trouble in the EU, blocking a Brexit agreement, not taking decisions, and basically torpedoing the functioning of the EU, I hope the EU is going to do something about it. The UK was bad enough for the EU while it was in, let's not allow it to destroy the rest…

> If the UK spends the next 15 years making trouble in the EU, blocking a Brexit agreement If they don't trigger Article 50, they have exactly the same role in the EU as if they never chose to leave (except that they lose the special concessions that they just got approved which were contingent on a "Remain" result in the referendum, which, AFAICT, is the only actual legal effect of referendum.) Once they trigger Art…

I doubt it. They have legally the same rights and obligations, but in practice I do not see the rest of the EU willing to work with the UK representatives. They will get the minimum legally required, and will have to satisfy the maximum of their legal obligations. British representatives will not be very popular in the european institutions now (not that they were very popular to start with)

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#319

Post by junto »

DanBC wrote: post #54
simonbarker87 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really!? Everyone I know who works is very pleased with how the economy has recovered, many friends under 30 have bought a house (without parental help), many are nearing 40% tax bracket and my Facebook feed is full of people going on holiday. Not sure which UK you are living in but the one I'm in is pretty nice - well it was, until this vote. And before you say I'm in some kind of elite I run a small factory in the…

> Not sure which UK you are living in The UK where waiting times for A&E are at the longest they've been for years; where waiting times for NHS consultant-led treatment are at the longest they've been since they introduced maximum wait times; where there are no in-patient MH beds for adults (seriously, just last week all adult inpatient MH beds in the country were occupied. (This significantly increases risk of suici…

That's nothing to do with the EU. That's years of neglect, lack of investment and poor management by a series of UK governments both Tory and Labour.

If we want a good health service and good schools then we need to invest. There problem is the only way that is going to happen is if we borrow the money (Labour tried that - no thanks), or you raise taxes. Raising taxes political suicide, which no party wants to do, especially the Tories. Then it needs to actually be managed wisely with a clear plan of operational action for a longer period than five years between each national election. These things take time, and each time we swap leadership they throw out the plan and start from scratch. It's like a constant series of pivots in no particular direction.

Re: David Cameron announces resignation

#320

Post by junto »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #111
dragonmum wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU's common agricultural policy was actively favoring and subsidizing large EU based multinationals and blocking entry into the market by small scale farmers and producers in developing countries. Seems to me like a huge new market called "the UK" just opened up for genuine and fair trade. So overall, this is probably good for hundreds of millions of people around the world.

At last UK farmers can sell their top quality fruit and vegetables to the rest of the world.

There is nobody left to pick it. We are about to throw out ask the Romanians and Bulgarians who do that hard graft, because no Brit will do the hard work for little money.
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