Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers • Hacker News Board

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#311

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #303

H0n3sty wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still trying to decide if you're holding the racism of lower expectation beliefs. Privileged and oppressed are just code words with no clear meaning. I don't know you, so I don't know why you would use profanity to describe Justice Thomas. He has solid principles based on his life's experiences and has had to endure a lot to serve so it makes no sense to me that anyone would describe him that way. You're probably…

This kind of generic ideological flamewar, as unresolvable as it is tedious, is off topic on HN. Please don't do this again. It's instructive how you managed to leap from gender to race without skipping a beat. That's an example of what I mean by generic. This is a marker—maybe the primary marker—of low quality discussion. It's always about pre-existing views, held for extraneous reasons, pretending to be a rational…

[deleted]

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#312

Post by H0n3sty » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #306

H0n3sty wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men and women have been subject to different pressures throughout the evolution of our species. Its seems unlikely that this would not lead to some differences either on average or across the populations.

If you can provide me with any well-done research showing that evopsych is anything besides the modern phrenology I'd be surprised.

Wow, that's a really good question. I'm fairly certain you've done a great deal more research on this than me. I had to start by finding the definition of two of the words you used. For the benefit of others who might not be as well versed...

evopsych - psychological traits are evolved adaptations

phrenology - the detailed study of the shape and size of the cranium as a supposed indication of character and mental abilities

My previous post was based on information from a recent study on Y-DNA which indicates a high differential in reproductive rate between men and women, with men reproducing at a much lower rate. This of course means that reproductive competition is much higher amongst men (at least in terms of successful reproduction) and might have lead to the aggressive pruning that we see in the y-chromosome. I'm also aware that competition has a heavy influence on evolution and that the sex chromosomes are not really isolated to gender specific anatomy.

Here's that study: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/25/4/459.full

I found another study (link below) on differences in personality traits across genders and culture. The authors found gender differences to be most pronounced in cultures that minimize traditional sex roles. Does this study fit your criteria?

http://www.cin.ufpe.br/~ssj/Genderdifferences%20in%20persona...

With respect to phrenology, I'm aware of studies linking brain size to intelligence. The meta-analysis (linked below) confirms this and actually notes a higher correlation among women.

http://www.govrel.vcu.edu//news/Releases/2005/june/McDaniel-...

From your previous post, I'm guessing you might have reason to discard this type of study. Could you please elaborate and share your thoughts?

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#313

Post by wpietri » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 11:05 PM UTC

thomasatethose wrote: post #307

wpietri wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have to force an equality of outcome. But it behooves us to be suspicious when the outcomes aren't equal. For centuries we had unequal outcomes in terms of doctor gender; one defense was "women don't want to be doctors". But when we finally removed the barriers, we see medical school admissions run about equal. I'm all for men going into nursing. You can work on shifting that ratio if you like. But I'm not p…

Two wrongs don't make a right. All throughout history rich men AND WOMEN of all races, colors and creed tortured the poor. The real issue isn't color, or gender. Its Class.

I disagree with your notion that in all the world there is only one real issue.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#314

Post by amyjess » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 11:06 PM UTC

bravura wrote: post #140

andrepd wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least where I come from I do not feel that in the slightest.

Trans-men report the opposite: http://time.com/transgender-men-sexism/ 'Most trans men I spoke to also identified another commonality: Once they transitioned [from female to male], walking became easier, but talking became harder. To be more specific: walking home after dark felt easier, casually talking to babies, strangers and friends felt harder. “I have to be very careful to not be staring at kids,” says Gardner.…

On a similar note, I heard a story from one trans guy who was disturbed by the reaction when he accidentally bumped into somebody on the street. The other guy recoiled back, threw his hands up, and started profusely apologizing while sounding like he was in a panic. It took the trans guy a few seconds to realize that the other guy was afraid of him and thought he'd beat him up for bumping into him by accident.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#315

Post by H0n3sty » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 11:14 PM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #120

NTDF9 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> So you think that there are more incapable women than men in the world? Incapable of what? Never once did I say women are incapable of either career or motherhood. Women can efficiently do what they choose to. Juggling many roles on the other hand is hard for any human being (regardless of gender) >> Women are capable of working in fields like tech through pregnancy. We have breast pumps and formula. If you're goi…

>"There are capable women who climb ladders successfully. The other women who couldn't, simply couldn't, just like many men who couldn't." There are fewer women, proportionally, who "climb ladders" successfully. This implies that there are fewer capable women than men in the world. >"Who said that man doesn't want to take a paternity leave? Every single recent father I know wants to take time off to bond with the kid…

>The mother being present is not required for a child to be exclusively breastfed anymore. Pumping is quite effective. The only argument for only the woman to be taking the time off and making these career compromises is one that views women as the only capable caregivers.

True that it's not required, but I suspect that when a child is in physical contact with its mother during nursing their are other benefits. For instance, the release of beneficial hormones during this type of bonding is well documented. Do you know of any studies on the impacts of bottle feeding breast milk vs nursing? (hoping I don't sound oppressive)

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#316

Post by amyjess » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 11:29 PM UTC

slackstation wrote: post #133

ps4fanboy wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because women dont want to marry men who want to be primary stay at home dads, some do, but I have never met a woman who wants that. Most of the women I speak to when asked think its a little bit funny.

Women tend to prefer men that are higher status than themselves. For a working woman (especially one in tech that earns alot) they tend find partners who are also employed. This makes a dichotomy where if a man makes $100k+ in most places in the US, they can one-income support a family. Where as women tend not to look favorably to men who take time off of to stay at home. Women's desire for high status men is somethi…

Modern-day living expenses being what they are, most people nowadays actively seek out partners who work because, unless you're filthy stinking rich, having a dual income is the only way to afford to raise a family and still have a decent lifestyle.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#317

Post by amyjess » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 11:50 PM UTC

slackstation wrote: post #142

nostrebored wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I've done this, let me tell you why: 1) People in tech are assholes to women. I don't think most of them realize they're doing it. Sending images of swimsuit models over slack or otherwise sexualizing your work environment is an awful idea, and you shouldn't do it even if you don't have women on your team. My partner gets asked out by coworkers regularly, even while pregnant. 2) No really, people in tech are assh…

These are startup problems. Larger mature tech companies (there are many of them) shouldn't be that hostile. I work at one with 1000+ employees and while it's not 50/50, I can't imagine it being that bad. Also, I'm a black person. All of the horror stories they say about POC in tech, I have never experienced one. I've had individual jerks but, I haven't had things like the company passing me up or ever felt that I wa…

> Also, I'm a black person. All of the horror stories they say about POC in tech, I have never experienced one. I've had individual jerks but, I haven't had things like the company passing me up or ever felt that I wasn't getting a promotion, ever.

One thing interesting about the company I worked at from 2012 to 2014 was that, despite it being an abusive startup with dysfunctional management, it was the single most ethnically-diverse place I've ever worked at, and I'd never heard about a single problem related to race there (while I'd heard a lot about the company's other problems). This was all despite the company being a tiny startup that never exceeded 15 full-time employees when I worked there (augmented by a handful of contractors and part-timers, so a little more than 15 on the payroll at a few points). To wit:

I'm Jewish, as were both of the co-founders. We had three Indian employees (though not at the same time). We had two black programmers, one of whom is also an albino and legally blind. Our lead content people were a woman of Cambodian descent and a guy of Iraqi descent who's an actual Assyrian Christian. We also had a few part-timers, including an Asian guy and a summer intern from Sicily (technically white, but I'd still say she's a minority because her accent stood out). WASPs were very much a minority at that company.

Also, I'm transgender, and so was one of our contractors, but that actually did cause issues (not with my employer, but with our landlord, who went out of their way to make life difficult for me because I'm trans).

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#318

Post by amyjess » Fri, Jun 03, 2016, 11:53 PM UTC

morgante wrote: post #174

nostrebored wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I've done this, let me tell you why: 1) People in tech are assholes to women. I don't think most of them realize they're doing it. Sending images of swimsuit models over slack or otherwise sexualizing your work environment is an awful idea, and you shouldn't do it even if you don't have women on your team. My partner gets asked out by coworkers regularly, even while pregnant. 2) No really, people in tech are assh…

> 4) Being pushed into management. Do you have a source for that? The dominant narrative I've heard is that women are passed over for promotions, not accelerated.

Probably depends on the kind of company.

At a small, technically-focused company where "manager" also means "tech lead", it's very unlikely that being disrespected is synonymous with "being pushed into management", but at a big, bureaucracy-heavy company that follows the Dilbert Principle where people perceived as incompetent are routinely kicked upstairs to get them out of the way, I can see that happening.

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#319

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 1:28 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #313

thomasatethose wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two wrongs don't make a right. All throughout history rich men AND WOMEN of all races, colors and creed tortured the poor. The real issue isn't color, or gender. Its Class.

I disagree with your notion that in all the world there is only one real issue.

[deleted]

Re: Women Who Code (YC S16) helps female engineers level up in their careers

#320

Post by thomasatethose » Sat, Jun 04, 2016, 1:29 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #313

thomasatethose wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two wrongs don't make a right. All throughout history rich men AND WOMEN of all races, colors and creed tortured the poor. The real issue isn't color, or gender. Its Class.

I disagree with your notion that in all the world there is only one real issue.

well that's fair.

but why do you think the over reaction is ok, which punishes innocent people not the people who created the system.

again two wrongs don't make a right, all it does is continue a negative cycle.