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I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

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311–320 of 325 posts

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#311

So sad. I find the mechanics here really challenging to overcome. The hotel management no doubt wants "really cool tech" for their hotel to show they are up to date etc. And they send out an RFQ which someone bids on, really cheaply. Knowing that by only doing the things the hotel asks for, they can throw something together quickly and cheaply for a big payday. This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in troubl…

We still use locks on doors, even though they provide security theatre only. Not everything needs to be that secure. Criminal nuisance laws are probably enough to deter anyone actually turning on all lights at 3am.

> We still use locks on doors, even though they provide security theatre only

This isn't really security theater — the term refers to something which gives the illusion of security and doesn't deliver, not the failure to achieve absolute security. In general, door locks are about as secure as they're portrayed: they don't prevent someone from breaking in but they considerably increase the time, skill/tool requirements, and risk of detection. The other key part is that the threat model is obvious: people understand that if e.g. you put a Grade 1 lock on the door but leave the window open, it's not a failure of the lock.

> Criminal nuisance laws are probably enough to deter anyone actually turning on all lights at 3am.

How are you going to find out who to charge?

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#312
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The practice of unethical corner cutting seems somewhat rampant in China, though. And isn't there a reason why cheap tools that easily break are said to be made of "chineesium"?

But it is rampant in whichever location has the whole supply chain. It was rampant in the US when there was the manufacturing workshop of the world, and rampant in the UK when they were before them.

That's interesting. What causes the correlation?

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#313
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://twitter.com/internetofshit Edit: Here are the greatest hits. http://favstar.fm/users/internetofshit By the way, it seems like extreme product fail on Twitter's part that I have to go to a sketchy third party site to get the top tweets for an account.

> By the way, it seems like extreme product fail Not necessarily. They just decided not to have this specific feature. It is a product design decision.

Of course they decided not to have it. It's not like they aren't capable of implementing simple features. I just think it's a dumb decision.

For many Twitter accounts, the top tweets are a lot more interesting than the latest tweets, especially if you've just discovered the account for the first time.

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when you're abroad on roaming cellular charges, and your three laptops decided that since your iPhone's personal hotspot is WiFi, it's time to download today's ChromeOS image version, because the one you had downloaded the night before was not good enough anymore. Source: Chromebooks are awesome, and even with excesses like this, they're still the cheapest to operate by far.

Chrome OS tries to honor various DHCP server flags that state that the connection is metered. Unfortunately iOS doesn't seem to provide any such indication. A comment in https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=323010 claims that the BSSID is used for a "suspected" state, but that may not be enough to actually stop it from downloading updates, but I'm far from an expert in that domain. In short, identify…

You can determine whether the network is a Personal Hotspot heuristically. It is nice of them to have implemented private DHCP flags in Android, but if you routinely pull hundreds of megabytes without user interaction...

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#315

So sad. I find the mechanics here really challenging to overcome. The hotel management no doubt wants "really cool tech" for their hotel to show they are up to date etc. And they send out an RFQ which someone bids on, really cheaply. Knowing that by only doing the things the hotel asks for, they can throw something together quickly and cheaply for a big payday. This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in troubl…

I don't understand why you use China as an example. The example you raised happens everywhere when your contract is exploitable. Pointing you finger to China does not help your case, only shows your prejudice

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#316

So sad. I find the mechanics here really challenging to overcome. The hotel management no doubt wants "really cool tech" for their hotel to show they are up to date etc. And they send out an RFQ which someone bids on, really cheaply. Knowing that by only doing the things the hotel asks for, they can throw something together quickly and cheaply for a big payday. This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in troubl…

I agree with you on all your points, except: > This is exactly the mechanism that gets people in trouble going to China for manufacturing. I keep hearing about the "cheap Chinese tech", even though nowadays a lot of high-quality gadgets are really Chinese. Even Apple's products are mostly from China. And it's not even for the cheap prices, it's because the entire production chain is there[1] The mistake is not going…

This has been an interesting conversation. I found it particularly interesting that my communication came across as disrespectful to the Chinese.

Few people that I've met have any real world experience with contract manufacturing. Of the ones I do, they have mostly dealt with Chinese manufacturers, although I do know one person who worked with a Japanese contract manufacturer and one with a Vietnamese factory. Everyone who has ever asked me about this I point to Bunnie's "Made in China" blog entries [1]. Which convey the challenges and rewards of taking manufacturing to China much more clearly than I ever could.

That said, people who have had experiences with contract manufacturing in China have all had a very similar experience, that experience was that the contract manufacturers have an exquisite expertise in squeezing costs out of manufacturing through creative techniques, not specifically disallowed by the contract. Bunnie writes about this at length in his blog.

The thing here is the law of large numbers. There are so many contract manufacturers, and their business is so competitive, the ones who develop this expertise survive and the ones who don't, they don't survive because nobody accepts their bids. It is important to understand that they are this way because they are good at what they do, not for any negative reason.

It is this exact asymmetry of information which I expect befell the hotel in its attempt to have "cool programmed light switches and TVs." This mechanism, which many people who have used contract manufacturers have experienced, is that an inadequate specifications on the final product can give the manufacturer room to economize on their costs, which increases their profit, and also increases the chance that the bidder will be around for the next bid.

And it is the large number of Chinese contract manufacturers, the ease with which they can be located and contacted via Alibaba or other web sites, that means so many people have had a chance to experience this effect first hand with them. Using Chinese manufacturers as an example of the challenge in my post was my way to communicate what I was talking about in a way that folks who might look this up could find additional resources discussing this challenge (and they would probably find Bunnie's blog too).

The leap here, was to take what I wrote and assume that I said, or believed that because something was made in China, is was cheap.

That was not what I said, and certainly not what I meant. But a mix of people have both read it both ways. So it certainly could have been written more clearly.

I really do recommend Bunnie's blog. Everyone should understand the challenges of working with contract manufacturers, regardless of their nationality. Not tightly specifying a contract (and worse not knowing how to tightly specify a contract) will create situations like the one with the Android controlled light switches.

[1] http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=7

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#317
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is rampant in whichever location has the whole supply chain. It was rampant in the US when there was the manufacturing workshop of the world, and rampant in the UK when they were before them.

That's interesting. What causes the correlation?

The full history of commerce. :p I'd suggest looking at the history of food and drug regulation and testing, or weights and measures regulation if you want more. The early years of both UK and US food and pharmaceutical regulation is terrifying!

TL;DR Immature locations cut more corners. More regulation, experience and reputation helps. Consumers are naive. Manufacturers want you to buy the same things many times over your life.

In all markets, There's always going to be someone willing to cut corners to secure a place in a market, or make a fast buck in a mature market. Or maybe it's a new market that can't yet have matured. That's only part of the problem.

As markets mature regulation increases and companies tend to trade more on reputation (not always deserved of course. eg Beats headphones). Now there's an opportunity to trade on the good reputation of wherever (Proudly Made in America! / Britain! / Japan!), whilst selling you cheap crap. That's the other half of the problem. The meaningless label to tell the consumer it's made wherever they currrently believe is good.

In the early 80s most things Japanese were crap. Hifi sounded awful, but had lots of LEDs. Bolts, tools and vehicles were made of soft cheese. Their stainless steel rusted (I kid you not)! Honda made cam chains of special stretchy metal and probably accidentally invented cheese strings. Now Denon make very nice hifi, Teng make very nice tools and their cars are pretty reliable.

Why pay £50 for a Snap On or Britool[1] spanner when there's an almost identically packaged one, made in the same place, for £3 or £40? Only one will last longer than you in daily use. One risks breaking on first use.

So, it would be more accurate to say "isn't there a reason cheap tools break", "cheap materials break", "consumers naively expect $100 quality for $3.99" or "dishonest people are dishonest" than blame a specific locality.

The ONLY thing that has changed is all manufacturers adding built in obsolescence whenever possible. Now even the premium item is made to last "just long enough" (to get away with), but that doesn't make any one location especially good or bad at making stuff.

The only thing geography introduces is the further away it's made, the harder it is to audit your supply chain. Racism and nationalism has no relevance however.

[1] They're no longer British, or often made in Sheffield, they're just another meaningless brand of Stanley trading on 100 years of reputation. You're actually better served buying Teng these days.

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#318
post #259
post #17

This whole IoT craze is turning into a nightmare. People are building all kinds of devices in complete ignorance of Security.

Just let them. The sooner people realize that buying a cheap $35 smart watch, or embedding the cheapest Android tablets into walls, or turning off your heating completely after the battery in your smart thermostat dies... the sooner we'll be in a place where the security of IoT is actually considered, not only as important, but as crucial. Then, we can have nice things.

Maybe we'll end up with a standard certification equivalent to UL or the green padlock next to the URL. Probably about 5 years in the future.

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#319
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a nice hacking story. But when you have physical access and expertise you can hack anything . So I don't understand what's so sad about it. I do advocate security in depth, and they should probably have added a few more "layers" of security, like hide the cables and encrypt the network traffic. But then he could just use a screwdriver or pull the encryption key from the device, etc. But they probably judged t…

He doesn't have physical access to the other rooms on the floor, yet he can (probably) control their lights.

Say you got inside a datacenter, or nuclear power plant, and pulled a cable from a control unit, you would probably be able to control stuff too, and probably more sensitive stuff then the room lights. As soon as you get access to stuff you are not meant to access, it gets exponentially hard to protect from privilege escalation.

As a security exercise, assume a malicious hacker have physical access to your LAN. (shares, KVM, IPMI, MITM)

Re: I stayed in a hotel with Android lightswitches and it was as bad as you'd think

#320
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The practice of unethical corner cutting seems somewhat rampant in China, though. And isn't there a reason why cheap tools that easily break are said to be made of "chineesium"?

I can remember a time when "Made in Japan" was still used to mean "shoddy and cheap".

What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.
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