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Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#311

Post by erkkie »

geertj wrote: post #305

I've been very impressed with what I've learned in the last few weeks regarding Apple's efforts to provide privacy for its customer using what it seems some very robust engineering and design. I'm currently an Android user (Samsung S6 edge) but am considering seriously going back to the iPhone because of this. The cynical side of me says that Apple's marketing tactics have worked. But I've got a feeling, heck, I want…

Anything specifically missing on android side except the PR? Seriously asking if I'm missing something. The nexus series has comparable crypto hw and similar options for encryption + wiping.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#312

Post by po »

tajen wrote: post #252
tptacek wrote: post #2

They're presumably already 99% of the way there. If the Secure Enclave can be updated on a locked phone, all they need to do is stop allowing that, right? To me, the more profound consideration is this: if you use a strong alphanumeric password to unlock your phone, there is nothing Apple has been able to do for many years to unlock your phone. The AES-XTS key that protects data on the device is derived from your pas…

I don't understand the whole debate about Apple security: - Apple is required to have backdoors, at least on iPhones sold in foreign countries, isn't it? - Even if the SE were completely secure, a rogue update of iOS could intercept the fingerprint or passcode whenever it is typed, and replay it to unlock the SE when spies ask for it. As far as I know, the on-screen keyboard is controlled by software which isn't in t…

Apple is required to have backdoors, at least on iPhones sold in foreign countries, isn't it?

I don't believe this is the case.

Even if the SE were completely secure, a rogue update of iOS could intercept the fingerprint or passcode whenever it is typed, and replay it to unlock the SE when spies ask for it. As far as I know, the on-screen keyboard is controlled by software which isn't in the SE.

What you say about an on-screen passcode is likely true but the architecture of the secure enclave is such that the touch ID sensor is communicating over an encrypted serial bus directly with the SE and not iOS itself. It assumes that the iOS image is not trustworthy.

From the white paper [1]:

It provides all cryptographic operations for Data Protection key management and maintains the integrity of Data Protection even if the kernel has been compromised.

...

The Secure Enclave is responsible for processing fingerprint data from the Touch ID sensor, determining if there is a match against registered fingerprints, and then enabling access or purchases on behalf of the user. Communication between the processor and the Touch ID sensor takes place over a serial peripheral interface bus. The processor forwards the data to the Secure Enclave but cannot read it. It’s encrypted and authenticated with a session key that is negotiated using the device’s shared key that is provisioned for the Touch ID sensor and the Secure Enclave. The session key exchange uses AES key wrapping with both sides providing a random key that establishes the session key and uses AES-CCM transport encryption.

[1]: https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#313

Post by 4ad »

ralmeida wrote: post #309
4ad wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to enter it every 48 hours.

Only if you don't unlock the phone in these 48 hours, no?

No, you have to enter it every 48 hours, regardless of what you have done with the phone in these 48 hours, and at every phone boot.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#315

Post by Udik »

erkkie wrote: post #310
Udik wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really need such strong security? Or after the FBI forced Apple to apply their best engineering minds to crack your phone, they'd just find a grocery shopping list and pictures of your cats? Because this sounds a bit like Tesla's "operating room air quality" - something that might be useful 0.001% of the customers, and it's just marketing for the remaining 99.999%

How can you ask a question like this? Define "so strong" in this context? It's similar to asking "do you need so free speech". We're not talking about anything special here beyond a standard expectation of reasonable security. The fact that apple is trying to make it "so secure even they can't hack it" is just a means for them to protect themselves that happens to align with the interests of the user.

General, unbreakable crypto security applied to all contents is a feature that very few people ever needed or even tried to achieve.

Until a few years ago you were perfectly content with keeping an agenda in your pocket and pictures in your living room's drawer. A minimum of privacy is of course needed and welcome; however, unless you're planning a major terror attack, or strategic war plans, or you have incredibly valuable industrial secrets (all cases in which you'll probably be using specialized SW to keep your information) you don't really need incredibly advanced security simply because nobody is going to spend vast amounts of time and resources to uncover your little secrets. The GP is talking about switching phone (spending money) to obtain a level of security that he won't need in a million years.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#316

Post by geertj »

erkkie wrote: post #311
geertj wrote: post #305

I've been very impressed with what I've learned in the last few weeks regarding Apple's efforts to provide privacy for its customer using what it seems some very robust engineering and design. I'm currently an Android user (Samsung S6 edge) but am considering seriously going back to the iPhone because of this. The cynical side of me says that Apple's marketing tactics have worked. But I've got a feeling, heck, I want…

Anything specifically missing on android side except the PR? Seriously asking if I'm missing something. The nexus series has comparable crypto hw and similar options for encryption + wiping.

Two things come to mind. First an equivalent of the secure enclave. Second a single company that is willing to go this far to protect its users. For Samsung this is complicated because both Google and Samsung are involved, and Samsung is not a US company so I'd expect them to cave in under pressure from the US govt more easily.

Edit: a Nexus device bought directly from Google with the right hw may address both points.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#317

Post by songshu »

Udik wrote: post #315
erkkie wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you ask a question like this? Define "so strong" in this context? It's similar to asking "do you need so free speech". We're not talking about anything special here beyond a standard expectation of reasonable security. The fact that apple is trying to make it "so secure even they can't hack it" is just a means for them to protect themselves that happens to align with the interests of the user.

General, unbreakable crypto security applied to all contents is a feature that very few people ever needed or even tried to achieve. Until a few years ago you were perfectly content with keeping an agenda in your pocket and pictures in your living room's drawer. A minimum of privacy is of course needed and welcome; however, unless you're planning a major terror attack, or strategic war plans, or you have incredibly v…

Your agenda in your pocket wasn't subject to unconditional dragnet surveillance. Copies of it weren't going to find their way on to security contractors' systems. Such copies wouldn't have then been stolen and distributed by whoever, and made available for search as you type. The intimacies of daily life are very precious.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#318

Post by philipov »

ethbro wrote: post #298
hollander wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uploading the encrypted content has no value as backup, if you don't have keys that can decrypt it. If the keys are backed up as well, all security is gone.

Is it that hard to have the phone display an encryption key and have the user copy it to dead tree? As above, not a good idea for a default, but don't see why it wouldn't be technically viable for opt-in protection.

The hardware key is designed to be impossible to extract from the device. That's part of the security, so you can't simply transfer the data to a phone where protections against brute-forcing the user key have been removed.

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#319

Post by unprepare »

Udik wrote: post #308
geertj wrote: post #305

I've been very impressed with what I've learned in the last few weeks regarding Apple's efforts to provide privacy for its customer using what it seems some very robust engineering and design. I'm currently an Android user (Samsung S6 edge) but am considering seriously going back to the iPhone because of this. The cynical side of me says that Apple's marketing tactics have worked. But I've got a feeling, heck, I want…

Do you really need such strong security? Or after the FBI forced Apple to apply their best engineering minds to crack your phone, they'd just find a grocery shopping list and pictures of your cats? Because this sounds a bit like Tesla's "operating room air quality" - something that might be useful 0.001% of the customers, and it's just marketing for the remaining 99.999%

>Do you really need such strong security?

Do i really need a quad core smartphone with a dedicated GPU 3GB of ram a higher pixel density than i can possibly distinguish, etc etc?

Why would i settle for shitty crypto just because the information isnt a state secret?

Re: Apple Is Said to Be Working on an iPhone Even It Can’t Hack

#320

Post by beshrkayali »

If this means that there's going to be some hardware measures in the iPhone itself that would prevent multiple passcode entry attempts then that'd be good. Otherwise, as long there's that "troubleshooting" system that can update/reinstall the firmware without the passcode and all measures taken to prevent brute forcing the passcode out are built in the software, it's all talk. There's nothing enlightening in this article.
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