Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

> According to MLK, every time black kids submerge their will in a police encounter, and come away from it alive, but humiliated, they will be dead inside until their bodies finally catch up. According to me, they will live long enough to either vote in comprehensive reform or to organize and rebel from a dearth of it.

Right, so when does the rebellion come? Why would you rebel ever when "someone will do it anyway", like that is some law of nature? According to you, hypothetical black kid should snitch on others when threatened to get beaten or arrested, and why wouldn't they -- if they don't snitch, someone else will do it, and the only difference would be their life being worse. Leaflet #3 of the White Rose comes to mind: "Do not hide your cowardice under the cloak of cleverness!" And I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

> If you quit a job in the military-industrial complex for which you have some ethical concerns, such as one which enables dragnet surveillance, what is the meaningful consequence?

I already said what it is for me and in my opinion, personal moral hygiene. The consequence is that you are no longer part of that. That is plenty meaningful to me. As Frankenstein said in The Death Race, (paraphrasing), "You can't save the world, you can maybe save a part of it, yourself". Well, I don't remember the exact quote, but that's how I feel about it. I don't even believe in something like a soul, but still, I would say saving your soul, retaining what little remains of our innocence, is the best anyone can achieve.

And as many found out, death doesn't always immediately follow making a stand. George Carlin found himself entertaining people he didn't like, the establishment, with cute things, and he pivoted. Had a long career, had a family, was heard, never sold out, never compromised. Noam Chomsky also has plenty haters, and I'm sure plenty who would love to see him hurt, but he is still rocking on.

> When you mention in job interviews that you left due to ethical conflicts with the former employer, you never seem to be a good "cultural fit".

Then either don't mention it, or don't interview for jobs with assholes. Get another job, and help take the assholes down. Do whatever you want, of course, but I don't see the dilemma here. It's not that black and white, i.e. either you go along or you're screwed. Actually, plenty people get screwed even though they're very obedient and have no flavour and no stance of their own. And as Lily Tomlin said, "The trouble with the rat race is, even if you win, you're still a rat." And you know, I don't quote this to put anyone else down, it's how I feel inside. Man, it's not just a feeling, it's a pretty solid thing. I had a lot of shit broken for me for trying to do the right thing, and had a lot of frustration and sadness for not just "popping soma" and going along, for questioning things. Yet I would not do it differently, given then the chance to do it again. I might be smarter or more patient about some things, but in general, I feel I got way more out of it than I lost. It's not just what it does to how I feel inside, it's also what it does to my perception, which is muddled, but less muddled as it would otherwise be. I see and speak with people who made and are making different decisions every day, and I don't envy a single one of them.

> Sometimes, you can't avoid it, but you should always try to not die as you work towards your goals.

Nobody (or hardly anybody) just keels over dead and thinks that advances any cause or does any good. It's usually "doing something or saying something, and then not stopping to do or say it even though others threaten you". You can hardly say "don't fear death" after arguing it's fine to fear quitting a job over ethical concerns, which is so much less than death.

I considered it, but I didn't grant it since it was not clear that it applied - nor for like discussions would it be clear in the future. You adopted an extreme position which is not analogous to the discussion you wished to have, and that is not an act of rhetoric; discussion as an art and a skill. It is simply poor communication - as evidenced by how widely your claims would imply you to be misunderstood.

Rhetorical license doesn't cover that. The charity of understanding others extend a speaker is not an unlimited effort.

> I'd like to shift towards the "less Evil/more privacy", but no one here or anywhere wants to try to come up with ways to do that, because everyone just assumes privacy gives Evil room to grow.

It does. You gave such an example yourself: TOR and child pornography. More widely speaking, it's possible to lessen the 'evil' in society through a great many means - better school, better welfare provision, stronger community links. More to the point many, even on this site, seem in favour of taking those steps: Strong encryption? Please. Better schools? Yes please. Better community organisations? Yeah. There are of course people who'd say no, but that does not change the fact that people in favour of them are easily found.

Many of the steps that could be taken in that regard seem orthogonal to the larger discussion at hand, (encryption security - as structured by reasonable context,) mind.

It's easy for us to sit at our desks and churn out our work and be mad. And there's things to be mad about for sure. The wanton disregard for civil liberty and protection is simply irredeemable. And to be sure, I've been a fan of your country's very public responses over the last few years to personal privacy. I hope the US legislature can learn a thing or two.

But It's not the "five eyes". It's the entire world. Any country with an interest in protecting their sovereignty also has some form of information gathering operation.

When that operation gets big and exposes itself, folks get upset because, yeah, being spied on isn't a comfortable thing. Do some countries go about gathering this information more morally than others? Something tells me we'd have to be in the secret inner sanctums of the biggest opponents to really know, and I think the answer would be "a spade is a spade."

Does it help our countries protect themselves? I honestly don't know.

But I do know that "grey hatting" in the general development community doesn't garner this sort of bile and venom. I don't know why being a grey hat for a government should be treated differently.