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State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

theguardian.com

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Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#311

Post by Houshalter »

Shivetya wrote: post #252
Houshalter wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because people let it. There is little danger form actual terrorism, but there is massive danger from people's reactions to terrorism.

I think you underestimate the impact this type of terrorism has. The real massive danger is constantly trying to downplay it. The simple fact is, when facing an irrational enemy the last thing you can do is try to shift the blame to those who react.

What impact? They kill a few people. That's terrible, but it's not even enough to dent the murder statistics. Let alone all causes of premature death.

The only impact is people's reaction to it. Blame should be shifted to those who react. It absolutely should be downplayed.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#312

Post by savanaly »

Shivetya wrote: post #252
Houshalter wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because people let it. There is little danger form actual terrorism, but there is massive danger from people's reactions to terrorism.

I think you underestimate the impact this type of terrorism has. The real massive danger is constantly trying to downplay it. The simple fact is, when facing an irrational enemy the last thing you can do is try to shift the blame to those who react.

It's practically impossible to underreact to terrorism, since its goal is to incense you and provoke a reaction. Mourn the loss, and take reasonable steps to prevent it, but dont put deaths to terrorist attacks on a pedastal as more tragic than other losses or make the perpetrators into some sort of demonic antiheroes.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#313

Post by jacquesm »

Fezzik wrote: post #303
elros wrote: post #209

I am French and have friends and family in Paris, fortunately they are all safe. I am however in shock and can't really process much except for shedding tears. I feel the strong need to point out that in these difficult times in Europe and the world, we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE.

While I wish this were true, do you not think the primary impetus is (likely) religious? I would wager these people are not crazy in any clinical sense; they have been deluded by a religious upbringing and culturally supported religious fervor. It is disingenuous to say that religion is not a contributing factor, if not the primary factor. It is like Steven Weinberg summarized: With or without [religion] you would ha…

If you go down that route you'll have a hard time explaining 'Jihad John' and the many western youths (including some that are extremely pale skinned) and that suddenly feel the need to join IS or do something else that is profoundly stupid and against their self-interests in every way.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#314

Post by dragonwriter »

selimthegrim wrote: post #301
anigbrowl wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not cool with flashing ID. Could you imagine being in the US and having to go through checkpoints every time you crossed a state border?

You've never seen the ag inspection stations at California border crossings, or the Border Patrol posts near the NM/TX line?

> You've never seen the ag inspection stations at California border crossings, or the Border Patrol posts near the NM/TX line?

The latter has nothing essential to do with the NM/TX border, there are border patrol checkpoints (including mobile ones) in a pretty wide swath "near" the Mexican border. They don't exist to enforce any kind of control on state borders.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#315

Post by lazaroclapp »

moultano wrote: post #192
rayiner wrote: post #125

Disappointed to see the comments downplaying the situation because as many people get killed in car accidents every week or whatever. Terrorist acts damage the social fabric far beyond the death toll. That's the whole point of terrorism.

If it were universally ignored, it wouldn't damage the social fabric.

So, when I first heard the news, my though was that when in France 40 people get gunned down it is a national emergency, whereas in Mexico (where I am from) it is an statistically peaceful day. That's what no reaction or military-first reaction gets you (well, combined with a lot more issues, but having this be "normal" is part of the problem back there).

I do think you want to treat it as "murder is a serious crime and needs to be prosecuted and punished" rather than "this is an act of Islamic terrorism and we need to declare War on Terror!". But, universally ignored is hardly how you want to react. You want to close borders and you want to declare emergency and you want to, ideally, apprehend these people using conventional police. You do not want to live in a permanent state of panic or build a police state after the fact, and you definitely don't want to take out your anger on a whole population of people over the actions of a small radical group. But you do want a, rational but concerned, reaction.

Right now, you want to get people to safety, help the survivors and catch those responsible, in that order.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#316

Post by AnimalMuppet »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #229
[deleted] wrote: post #204

[deleted]

It's called a state. It has a monopoly on violence. It doesn't take kindly to competition. (Stupid question warrants a stupid answer. Other than the fact that you're relying on a fallacy of evoking a nostalgic period that probably never was, there's the whole matter of the French government ordering a curfew on its citizens for them to stay inside. As such, your scenario of French men taking up arms is explicitly for…

> and will likely get you killed if you attempted it.

And not just because it's forbidden by the government. It also makes it much more likely that you get confused with the people the government is trying to stop. (In your own thinking, you may be trying to stop them, too, but the government doesn't know that.)

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#317

Post by [deleted] »

rtz12 wrote: post #300
vox_mollis wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the parent's point, support for this generalization comes from the very odd fact that fully 75% of the composition of the refugee families are men, with women and children comprising 12% and 13%, respectively.

I personally don't like this argument. It is not surprising that young men will go first and let their families come safely after. Not all of Syria is a war zone after all.

[deleted]

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#318

Post by leppr »

uhtred wrote: post #128
rdl wrote: post #34

What can we in tech do to help with this kind of situation?

Twitter could destroy any accounts that belong to or sympathise with organisations like ISIS. Why do they allow those cretins to have a voice?

This is exactly the kind of reaction that makes terrorists attacks dangerous to society.

Obviously ISIS is past the point of laissez-faire tolerance but that isn't the point, ideological censorship should always be a last resort.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#319

Post by Udik »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #179
yourepowerless wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to the western powers which have killed millions of Muslims this last decade?

Western powers? Not so much. "Al-Qaida Kills Eight Times More Muslims Than Non-Muslims" http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/surprising-study-o... "ISIS’s Gruesome Muslim Death Toll: The group’s killing of Westerners gets attention. But ISIS has killed far more Muslims, and publicizing that fact would harm it more." http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/07/isis-s-grue... "Well, if spilling Muslim blood i…

It's not whether Al-Qaeda or ISIS kill more Muslims or non-Muslims. Is how many Muslims or Arabs are dead as an effect, direct or indirect, of the Western interventions in the area.

US-backed Iraq against Iran war: some 1/2 million - 1 million deaths.

Desert Storm: 20-30 thousand

Operation Desert Fox (1998): 600 (in 4 days)

Iraq War: 30-40 thousand

Sanctions against Iraq: somewhere between 150 and 500 thousand deaths.

And this is Iraq (and Iran) alone.

Then there are: the war in Libya and its ongoing civil war, the civil war in Iraq, in Syria, the bombs on Gaza, Afghanistan... all the direct work or at least helped or backed by the Western countries.

Re: State of emergency declared across France after Paris shootings and explosions

#320

Post by uxwtf »

cballard wrote: post #269
cataflam wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible even with Schengen. A clause in the Schengen convention (in article 2.2) authorizes states to reinstate border checks in exceptional circumstances. > Where there is a serious threat to public policy or internal security, these countries may exceptionally reintroduce border controls at its internal borders for a period of no more than 30 days (possible to prolong under conditions established by the code)…

No, I get that it's legal. But there's no... border. In the map link I posted, you wouldn't be able to tell half of the satellite view was Belgium without Google telling you that's the case. How do you close that down, especially in the middle of the night? The US can't even do it in places with a wall.

I agree that closing all borders physically would be tough. There would be controls on the roads and airports, but in the zone you posted a physical wall is required to isolate two countries.
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