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Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

nytimes.com

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Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#311

Post by plonh »

emp_zealoth wrote: post #282
luckydude wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too am a motorcyclist (85K miles of sport bike riding, Sunday morning ride to Pt Reyes was a lot of that, current stable is r1200gs and wr250r). I despise loud pipes, just frigging hate them. But I live in deer country (Santa Cruz mountains) and I've hit a deer at speed on the GS (did not wipe out, lifted the front end and had my front tire hit it square in the hind quarters, spun the deer around, I dropped the fro…

I despise overly loud pipes - like, you have to scream loud. But,Ive been riding a bike a lot as well. Way too quiet exhausts (like EU is constantly pushing on us) are dangerous - ive seen it myself - my dad with a louder exhaust passes with no issues and I, silently, get cut off and nearly run off the road by a guy that assumes that mirrors are for pussies. It happened quite a few times already.

If the other driver didn't use a mirror, how is a bike more threatened than a car?

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#312

Post by brc »

Raphmedia wrote: post #217
1ris wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope this gets fixed, although I don't believe it. I care about the noise emissions. AFAIK they are measured on a real road, but only up to 50 km/h and in a ridiculous narrow test. Harley Davidson and other are known to optimise for this test with movable parts in the exhaust pipes so these get much louder when the bikes goes faster than 50 Km/h.

Well, as much as a cheat it is, I'm happy that those bikes can go quiet on slow (city) streets but as loud as possible on the highway (increase security and swag).

Loud Harleys frustrate and annoy me. Most owners seem to remove the factory pipes and fit the loudest ones possible.

It's not true this helps on the highway. In my car, which has double glazed glass, you can't hear a bit until it's right outside the window.

When I'm walking along with the dog and kids, an open pipe Harley riding past is particularly not safe, because it scares the crap out of them.

One idling Harley is louder than a thousand idling Volkswagen diesels.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#313

Post by brc »

kimburgess wrote: post #303
jboggan wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a motorcyclist and I'm downvoting this fallacy. If this were seriously the case then good beginner bikes like the Ninja 250 and Honda CBR250R would be unsafe, especially for new riders. Enjoy your loud pipes if you like (I do on my throaty Aprilia) but don't pretend they give you any safety benefit to balance the annoyance it causes some people.

+1 here. I have two bikes: one is a custom tracker (read: bunch of parts bolted together into something that runs... mostly) with open pipes. The other is a Zero SR (electric). Although anecdotal, I notice no difference in driver perception of my presence, except in stand still traffic, where it is least needed. With the level of acoustic engineering that goes into modern vehicles specifically to block out external n…

Exactly - in my car with people talking and radio on, you won't hear a bike until it is so close it doesn't make any difference.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#314

Post by brc »

rayiner wrote: post #293
mikeash wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your vehicle can't be safe without annoying everyone within a quarter mile radius, it's too unsafe to be on the road.

Motorcycles should be illegal.

Well, that's just wrong, motorbikes are an important part of any transportation mix.

When the answer is 'ban it' there is something wrong.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#315

Post by brc »

marincounty wrote: post #272
Evolved wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California has a new emissions check system for vehicles 2000 and newer. No tail pipe probe or dyno regardless of the vehicle. Just visual inspection and plug in the OBDII reader. The OBDII reader checks the sensors for proper functioning and checks the ECU to make sure it hasn't been tampered with. Smog tech only really has to do the visual chek. Diesel trucks also get a snap test (step on the accelerator quickly an…

Yea, they do get the tailpipe emmissions test. Most shops use just one reference book for the visual inspections. The shop owner usually, almost always, buys the $100.00 Motor Emissions manual. The cheap shop owner should buy OnDemand5(Mitchell Manual Smog Emission) subscription/publication. They don't because they are cheap, and CARB only requires one reference manual for customers, and technicians. The problem is M…

Naturally aspirated means the engine breathes air at regular atmospheric pressure - ie is not turbo or supercharged.

The type of fuel delivery has nothing to do with whether it is naturally aspirated or not. A NA engine can have fuel injection and a supercharged engine can have a carburettor.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#316

Post by brc »

dubyah wrote: post #288
xxpor wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe doesn't have stupid emissions rules biased against diesels.

On the contrary, California emission standards held diesel passenger vehicles to the same standards as gasoline/petrol passenger vehicles. Whereas in Europe, diesel emission standards were much more lax compared to their petrol counterparts. I suppose one could say that being more concerned with the more directly harmful and smog forming emissions(NOx and PM) over CO2 would constitute 'bias' against diesels. But, con…

A lot of jurisdictions in Europe are rethinking their diesel prioritisation a precisely because of particulate and Nox emissions.

In the case of Volkswagen, the TSi engines are a much better buy than the TDi engines. Better power delivery, clean running and nearly as good fuel economy.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#317

Post by brc »

daniel-levin wrote: post #136

Many of the comments in this thread follow a similar pattern. They are all essentially derivatives of Goodhart's law. [0] >> Once a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. It's quite useful to have a name - a label - for this sort of behaviour. In this case, the means by which VW optimised for this metric was crafty computer software! A metric is only as good as the cost of the unintended consequence…

To me the tests have to be real measurements rather than a proxy.

Having a special test makes the test easy to pass.

If the test was instead to have sampled data from x,000 cars, gathered at service intervals fit within certain bands, then that would require actually engineering most cars to return within the set range across a wide range of use types.

Smaller niche manufacturers could just pass a simpler test to encourage market entrants. 200 slightly worse cars is nothing against 200,000 intentionally bad cars.

The regulations need to target what is trying to be achieved rather than simplified proxies.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#318

Post by plonh »

gpvos wrote: post #294
justincormack wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No fines should be punitive so they dont do it again. It is not about clean up with particulates, it is about their medical effects, which you cant be specific about.

Fines that would really be enough to clean up the environment would probably obliterate the company.

Capital punishment is a deterrent against rational actors.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#319

Post by brc »

ibarrajo wrote: post #234
johnny99 wrote: post #115

Given the low cost and ubiquity of sensors nowadays, you'd think it would be feasible to require car makers to test emissions in real time, in the real world.

We already have that, It's called OBDII. Besides error codes, OBDII has 8 emissions monitors. In California all cars after 2001 are checked by means of a visual and these 8 readiness monitors: catalyst, heated catalyst, EVAP, SAI, O2, O2 Heater, EGR/VVT, AC Source: I work on my two Audis

I think he means to have the car collect it's own data on emissions, which can then be collected.

It's a far better idea than to just sample a few cars in a limited test.

Re: Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500k Vehicles Over Emissions Software

#320

Post by plonh »

dougb wrote: post #210
joshrotenberg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got a 2013 Golf TDI and was thinking about this as well. If it isn't a safety related recall, I'm not sure how you get people to comply aside from some other action related to, say, their next years registration (i.e. if your VIN doesn't have this fix applied, you can't reregister your car). Not sure if that's a thing, though. I'd personally plan to take my car in "real soon now" to get the fix.

I wonder how you car will drive after the "fix." I suspect you won't be very happy with it.

The vast majority of consumers won't notice. Some will be upset, because They bought the car for the specs on paper just to feel cool. Similar to how the fanboi segment of consumers by video cards and computers and stereo equipment.
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