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How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

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Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#311

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

steven2012 wrote: post #296

Frankly, I support this. We need to pay more for software, not less. The Freemium model is killing products because you can't make any money from writing programs anymore unless you get a huge homerun. People only want to pay $0.99 for a program that took months of man-hours to write. $5.99? Fuck it, that's too expensive! IntelliJ is magic to me. It's a wonderful piece of software, and I generally do not like Java. B…

> The Freemium model is killing products because you can't make any money from writing programs anymore unless you get a huge homerun.

This isn't Freemium. This is the equivalent of Buy-To-Play. You are paying for the product. Paying quote a lot, in fact.

And unlike an MMO, there's no servers to run, just possible bugfix updates.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#312

Post by sokoloff »

HelloNurse wrote: post #290

The social cost of subscription-based offers can be enough to make users forfeit good products. If a developer convinces a manager to buy a perpetual license of IntelliJ, mission accomplished: the developer will be able to use IntelliJ forever. Persuading the manager to spend more on IntelliJ by making a convincing case that an upgrade is worth the money is an optional campaign, reserved for a favorable moment (e.g.…

I'm sure there are development shops that are that tight with a buck, but I've never worked at one. In my experience, once a recurring cost is baked into the run rate, it's easier to get it approved for the following year than it is to get an unforecast license purchase made during the year.

If you're working for a shop where a $200 annual expense for a dev tool is a deal-breaker, I shudder to think of how the rest of your work life is (free drinks, food, merit raises, etc).

(I acknowledge ahead of time that my comments are based on US employment.)

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#313

Post by steven2012 »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #311
steven2012 wrote: post #296

Frankly, I support this. We need to pay more for software, not less. The Freemium model is killing products because you can't make any money from writing programs anymore unless you get a huge homerun. People only want to pay $0.99 for a program that took months of man-hours to write. $5.99? Fuck it, that's too expensive! IntelliJ is magic to me. It's a wonderful piece of software, and I generally do not like Java. B…

> The Freemium model is killing products because you can't make any money from writing programs anymore unless you get a huge homerun. This isn't Freemium. This is the equivalent of Buy-To-Play. You are paying for the product. Paying quote a lot, in fact. And unlike an MMO, there's no servers to run, just possible bugfix updates.

If software developers expect to be paid well for their talents, the cost of software has to increase.

And it's not just bugfix updates, it's new features and innovations.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#314

Post by falcolas »

btreecat wrote: post #288
falcolas wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To continue the analogy, most woodworker's tools are 1) well over three years old, and 2) have consumable components which cost well over Jetbrain's highest subscription cost every year. Not to mention, once purchased, a woodworker won't get upgrades to their tools, or have problems with them fixed as part of their ongoing cost. Consider it a contribution to a team whose tools you obviously enjoy, to ensure both that…

Also, my hammer won't phone home to Lowes every month to make sure I have a valid subscription to hit things with it.

Your John Deere tractor will...

The world is changing, for better or ill. And we're at the forefront of what's driving those changes.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#315

Post by Daishiman »

cool-RR wrote: post #292
Daishiman wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. I would pay twice as much as I did for PyCharm, but I want software that I can control which doesn't phone home to the mothership to see if I have the privilege of being able to use it for that month. I don't want to open the travel laptop I keep stored for when I'm away from home in an airplane or the middle of nowhere and be interrupted because I can't contact a licensing server or whatever such bullsh…

I take your point regarding phoning home. I also think that's a problem. But really, you can't blame software providers. In the old days they'd all do the one-off purchasing model, and then they would all starve to death because people don't want to pay for software. So it's no wonder they're going for a model which is actually proven to work, which is a subscription.

Why not? I have paid consistenly for yearly upgrades, and I'm sure a lot of people can too.

I want shit that works, unconditionally. If JetBrains can't give me that, I'll start looking elsewhere.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#316

Post by newjersey »

vetinari wrote: post #308
newjersey wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a complete newbie so my perspective is inherently flawed but I am wary of installing anything on a Debian machine that I can't just get using aptitude (sudo apt-get install foo). Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it possible to create a Debian repository server at Jet Brains that I can add to my aptitude sources list and then install Intelli J and stuff from the conventional command line interface? Why does Jet…

It opens web browser in Debian? On Fedora, it just downloads a patch, applies it and restarts. The pet peeve of mine is, that it downloads a patch, restart, then it finds out it has updates for plugins too, downloads them and restarts again. It would be much nicer if Jetbrains had a yum repository for both IDE and plugins and would download delta rpms. Just like Google Chrome does.

> It would be much nicer if Jetbrains had a yum repository for both IDE and plugins and would download delta rpms. Just like Google Chrome does.

Yes, it'd be nice if we had repositories for yum and apt-get.

Also, I understand that most of the time it just downloads a patch, and restarts but the first install is still a problem. It shouldn't be that way.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#317

Post by mattkevan »

mikeash wrote: post #66

What bugs me about this is when I asked them about the change on Twitter and they kept trying to blow smoke up my butt about how it's better for everyone. Their first response was that it's cheaper than before. Except it's not. Did they think I wouldn't actually go look at the prices? Then they said it's better because you can jump in and out at will. Only need Product X for a month? Only pay for a month. Which is fi…

The problem with SAAS pricing for previously bought software is that the conversation changes from 'Pay us for this great bit of software, then pay us again when we make it even better', to 'Pay up or all your years of work goes away'.

It's a fundamentally different relationship.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#318

Post by qyv »

steven2012 wrote: post #296

Frankly, I support this. We need to pay more for software, not less. The Freemium model is killing products because you can't make any money from writing programs anymore unless you get a huge homerun. People only want to pay $0.99 for a program that took months of man-hours to write. $5.99? Fuck it, that's too expensive! IntelliJ is magic to me. It's a wonderful piece of software, and I generally do not like Java. B…

This. This whole thread is people saying how great IntelliJ is, but damn them for changing their prices. I can't believe how short sighted people can be when confronted with even the smallest change. Jetbrains needs to make money both to stay in business and to continue to innovate with their products, that is a fact. Prices on things go up over time, why should software be excempt? Would it be better if they put in ads and sold your personal data to pay for it? With constant uproar or using the consumer as the product you would think that folks would relish supporting a software company with their dollars instead.

Besides, this pales in comparison to a yearly MSDN license and that new fancy macbook every couple years, or even that morning starbucks fix.

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#319

Post by sangnoir »

fastball wrote: post #77
mikeash wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay for Spotify. I don't like JetBrains' decision. Walk me through why this removes my right to complain. I don't get it. I don't like JetBrains' decision because using their software represents a large investment in time and effort to learn it and get set up to use it. That investment could then be destroyed at any time if they go out of business, or if they decide in a few years that their prices need to be 500x…

1. If they "go out of business" you will save money with the new model, because instead of paying for a year of the license in advance, you are paying by month. 2. Nothing in their old model prevented them from raising prices. Not sure how you think switching to a monthly subscription model changes that. i.e. your entire premise, that this is an investment of time and money, really has nothing to do with JetBrains' s…

> 1. If they "go out of business" you will save money with the new model, because instead of paying for a year of the license in advance, you are paying by month.

Oh, it's much worse than that. With the old licensing model, if JetBrains went out of business, you'd be left with an antiquated IDE that works. Under the new model, you'd be left with nothing because the IDEs need to call-home and verify against a licensing server. Who knows what happens when the licensing server gets decommissioned (I guess you could ask EA customers).

Re: How JetBrains Lost Years of Customer Loyalty in Just a Few Hours

#320

Post by mikeash »

enraged_camel wrote: post #277
mikeash wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad it's better for you (really!). But they shouldn't present it as better for everyone when it's clearly not.

He is specifically refuting your argument that the new model isn't cheaper than the old model.

And I'm accepting that but pointing out that it still applies to many.
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