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“It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

kickstarter.com

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Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#311

Post by automathematics »

dmbaggett wrote: post #10

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

Yeah, we made Fallout New Vegas was a team of ~50. Now I feel bad.

I didn't know CB had such a small team! Props!

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#312

Post by sopooneo »

Joeri wrote: post #160
rkangel wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Issues with estimating, particularly something like this, mostly comes down to meta-ignorance: you don't know what you don't know. Given a particular problem of a similar sort to something he's worked on, an experienced engineer will be able to list 10 different issues that might crop up. An inexperienced engineer won't know of those potential problems and will just see the most optimistic path possible. When you're…

The issue that I'm struggling with as I picked up experience and learned how to estimate better (read: higher) is of becoming a wet blanket. People will rave about this awesome thing we could do, and I'm the one saying "no, we can't, and this is why". That's why Steve Jobs said to stay foolish, it lets you chase after ideas that a rational person would consider too risky or just plain impossible.

I don't know what the opposite is of a "wet blanket" (perhaps "ray of sunshine"?), but is it possible to express almost the same hesitation from the opposite direction? For instance, say, "Yes, we can do that, but it will mean hiring four new devs and investing in XYZ server." Or does that just come across as transparently disingenuous?

I ask this sincerely, because I am trying to find a way to approach office politics as just part of my job and play it well. But as a developer, I'm also trying avoid the version of office politics where you just promise impossible things then find scapegoats later.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#313

Post by gobengo »

dmbaggett wrote: post #10

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

Reading this right now and I think it's 6, not 9. But yes.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#314

Post by perotinus »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #103
forgetsusername wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is important to realize that ignorance isn't "bad" it can be fixed by learning In the parlance of Mr. Rumsfeld, you can learn from the known unknowns, but often you don't even discover the unknown unknowns (the "meta-ignorance") until it's too late.

Except that Rumsfeld had a different problem, he had people who didn't want him to know what he didn't know, because it was a tactical advantage for them. This, like most engineering tasks, is more straight forward. You have to know what its going to take to build each piece and assemble them into the final product. So if you are making a AAA indie game, it helps if you can talk with the project manager at a company…

In case anyone else was wondering what Chesterton's fence is:

"Chesterton's fence is the principle that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood."

I learned something new (and useful) today. Thanks!

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fen...

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#315

Post by wisty »

BrandonY wrote: post #307
wisty wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling the number 5 selling game of 2014 "not AAA" is pretty much semantic. I agree, it's not AAA, in terms of assets, but I'm saying a "box of lego bricks" (or something like that - copying Minecraft won't work now) is the only way to compete with AAA on assets. PCG looks like a holy grail, but I doubt it (unless you can get it good enough to sell to AAA, then why wouldn't you just license the tool?). Minecraft is…

"AAA" doesn't mean "very successful." It is a category for the games with the very highest development and advertising budgets. Minecraft was built and released with near-zero budget and is, therefore, not a AAA game.

If I just said "it's semantic", and then I'm saying "I meant AAA success on a low budget", why do you feel the need to debate the meaning of words?

For what it's worth, "semantic" means "related to definition of words". The argument we're having is still semantic. And semantic arguments are usually pointless. Just in case you didn't know.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#316

Post by DonHopkins »

blakeyrat wrote: post #214
TomGullen wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "AAA Game" mean anyway? I'm a bit lost on the definition. Wikipedia says: > In the video game industry, AAA (pronounced "triple A") is a classification term used for games with the highest development budgets and levels of promotion. A title considered to be AAA is therefore expected to be a high quality game and to be among the year's bestsellers. By definition, a budget of $75k + 6-10 people wont make an…

This is all from the top of my head. Credentials: I play a lot of video games. AAA game (typical example: Skyrim): * Sells for $50-$60 * Has cutting-edge graphics and (generally) runs on the newest generation of hardware * Is available on most/all gaming platforms * (Nowadays) Usually has some celebrity involvement (Skyrim had Max von Sydow, Christopher Plummer, Michael Hogan. Oblivion had Patrick Stewart.) * 20+ hou…

I'd argue that The Sims 1 was an AAA game (in that it became the best selling PC game of all time) BECAUSE it ran on last year's hardware, used software rendering, and didn't require a 3D graphics accelerator, so a lot more people were able to play it (like little brothers and sisters who inherited their older sibling's computer when they got upgraded).

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#317

Post by gridspy »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #242
s73v3r wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about how you believe that fulfilling a book order is that simple.

Can you be more specific? They actually said they had everything made and printed, can't be that hard... they simply didn't end up having enough money for shipping costs because they went bankrupt for other reasons. Again, they made an accounting mistake, instead of earmarking the funds for shipping, they expected once the game launched they'd sell easily (they were greenlit in days, featured at the E3 etc), they'd e…

1000 of something on the shelf - that was the easy part done. Yay.

1000 boxes / envelopes stuffed, addressed shipped, through customs and to clients - OMG so much pain, so much time.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#318

Post by weirdPAL »

igorgue wrote: post #59
michaelt wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the original kickstarter [1] was for $50,000 with $72,000 raised. I'm not an expert on the economics of the video game industry, but I can't believe that would pay a team of 6-10 people for very long. [1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/45588301/woolfe-the-red...

They're based on Antwerp, Belgium, That could make it work. Since the regular salary is $24k I'd expect it to be around $5k per person.

These teams should move to a low cost developing country after a successful Kickstarter. They could live very well for 1k per person. You already have the clients, you already have the investment and hopefully, you already have the team. It doesn't make sense to stay in a high cost area.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#319

Post by jeremiep »

mikekchar wrote: post #308
jeremiep wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't like velocity as a metric. It's about as useful as counting lines of code to judge a project's completion. I don't think I could explain it as well as Dave Thomas says it, so here's a link to his fantastic keynote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-BOSpxYJ9M

Unfortunately the link is a little longer than I have time to view today, but I will put it on my to-watch list ;-) As you say, velocity is a poor metric. But before I explain what I mean by that, I should define "metric". The dictionary defines it to be simply a measurement, but in software process engineering, "metric" is often a special term. It means a measurement that you use to modify your process. The problem…

I hear you, I've also heard "How can we get our velocity higher?" more times than I can count.

What I don't like about velocity is that it encourages the gamification of the process. Developers start caring more about their velocity than the quality of their code and before long nobody has any clue of the big picture and the project starts going down the drain.

Working in the video game industry, I see the striking difference between playing games and developing games first hand, every day :)

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#320

Post by sdrothrock »

Bartweiss wrote: post #272
rkangel wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Issues with estimating, particularly something like this, mostly comes down to meta-ignorance: you don't know what you don't know. Given a particular problem of a similar sort to something he's worked on, an experienced engineer will be able to list 10 different issues that might crop up. An inexperienced engineer won't know of those potential problems and will just see the most optimistic path possible. When you're…

This is a crucial observation. "Hofstadter's Law" at work: any unfamiliar task will take longer than planned, no matter how much extra time there is the plan. You can't account for your ignorance with padding, you need some kind of actual knowledge. The result, then, is that there are only a few ways to actual make an AAA game. One is to hire some quorum of people who've already made one, so that they can bring you u…

> "Hofstadter's Law" at work: any unfamiliar task will take longer than planned, no matter how much extra time there is the plan.

I've always known this as Cheops's Law: No project is ever completed on time or under budget.

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