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F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

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Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#301
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bottom line is that net neutrality comes out of the desire for people to be able to access any site they want without penalties due to traffic shaping or other shenanigans. The reason they are concerned is that the cable companies and to a lesser extent wireless and DSL companies are doing this. And why do they have the power to do this? Why don't people just vote with their feet and switch to a competitor? Because t…

> Every cable company in every city I've lived in the USA has been a locally granted monopoly with the city extracting massive amounts of money from the monthly cable bill in "Franchise" fees. In no city is the cable company actually a "locally granted monopoly." Every franchise agreement I've seen points out that it's non-exclusive. Technologists have a fundamental misconception that leads to a lot of cognitive diss…

The cable franchise agreements are exclusive. That's why you don't see two companies offering cable service. If they weren't you other companies would compete.

Regarding wireless, you don't seem to understand how the industry is structured. While it's true there are many brand names on the shelf in walmart, there are only 3 actual providers in a given metro region. Virgin, for instance, uses Sprints network, which is a combination of deals done with the owners of spectrum across the country.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And once this new company that limits everything that is not Facebook, Twitter and Netflix gains a large market share, how will any new company ever compete with Facebook, Twitter and Netflix?

How did HBO compete with NBC? How do we have any channels besides PBS for that matter? How does any paid app compete with any free app? Why do we have netbooks when a a Raspberry Pi costs $35 and (the 2 at least) can do everything most consumers do on a computer? Your question carries with it the assumption that an ISP should be responsible for ensuring the success of application and website developers. Would you mak…

A closer analogy in the road-crew case would be a crew introducing obstructions to or closing lanes in roads that exit toward particular destinations, based on how much money the owners of businesses located at those destinations paid them. If the crew wanted to do their job and maintain the roads as the road conditions required, keeping their sights on the piece of infrastructure under their purview rather than butting into the logistically irrelevant question of the drivers' ultimate destinations, then sure, they shouldn't be responsible for the experiences at those destinations. But if they do butt in, one may certainly look askance at their business practices.

Indeed, to take the analogy even more literally, you'd practically be saying that it wasn't a certain governor's responsibility that drivers suffered from his decision to arbitrarily close bridge lanes as a political move.

To be fair, obviously roads are maintained by the government and thus form a monopoly, while you're arguing that these decisions can be positive only in the presence of competition. But I find it hard to see why such dysfunctional maintenance would be encouraged in any situation.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#303
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, those consumers who judge that that level of service is a better deal for them would switch. To step back a bit, what I posited was only a hypothetical to show how such a choice might limit competition down the line. To step back even further, your post makes it clear that we have an ideological difference here. I do not view rate-limiting as inherently bad. There is a ceiling above which I would not be willing t…

It's not a question of morality. What it boils down to is which side are you on. Do you care more about ISPs and their ability to do whatever they want in order to maximize their profits, or do you care more about the health of the ecosystem (Internet)? In your hypothetical, if an ISP could come with an offering that would hurt the ecosystem (by favoring X against Y, and hence not allowing the Internet to be a levele…

I do absolutely agree with you that ISPs are in a poor state in the majority of the US. I think a lot can be done to improve it. I disagree strongly that net neutrality is the most important or most effective lever to push on.

As I have made clear, and as I think is fairly obvious to anyone who has moved between various ISP markets in this country, I believe that the quality of internet service is positively correlated with the number of providers in an area. I have cheap and reliable internet with three ISPs. None of the three throttle their connections in this market, and one has just introduced 10Gbps fiber to the home. The fiber provider is actively expanding, but even if you don't live on a street with access, you can get cheap reliable service from either of the remaining two.

I think it would be better for any individual in the US who cares about their internet access to move their markets in a direction from one ISP to more ISPs (like the area I live in) than to pass a law enforcing net neutrality and forbidding any kind of rate-limiting.

I do care about ISPs being able to offer me as many types of service as possible, and me being allowed to choose the service I prefer. Again, my general preference is for unlimited internet, but my preferences are bounded by costs. Another hypothetical: Suppose I am willing to pay $15 for internet access, and the only service an ISP is willing to offer at that price is throttled in some way (data cap, certain sites slower, whatever scheme). If you eliminate this as an option, then you have eliminated my access entirely, because $15 is my limit. In this way, marginal customers may be harmed by net neutrality.

I am not convinced by the argument that the internet will be ruined if some internet service contracts are rate-limited in some way. The biggest threat to the next (Google|Facebook|Twitter) is not any ISP, but (Google|Facebook|Twitter) existing and having a large network effect for its services. And to be honest I have not seen much more argument beyond this point. Even if I were to accept this argument, I think the pathetic internet connections that some people in the US have (there are people still on dialup and Forgive me if this is a misinterpretation, but you seem to jump from my hypothetical of _one_ ISP out of >1 in a market offering _a_ plan that is rate-limited in some way (what if it is just a data limit? This does not favor any portion of the web over another.) to there being no un-rate-limited service contracts available. I find this incredibly unlikely, primarily due to the huge unpopularity of rate-limited plans among a vocal minority of internet users.

Finally, I am quite confident that two ISPs fighting for my dollars are more likely to offer me something I want than two ISPs fighting for a favorable interpretation of some regulation.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#304

What a coincidence; I just posted this to my Facebook feed yesterday: Dealing with ISPs (and mobile providers, for that matter) is a never-ending hell of time-sucking and abysmal customer service. Communications as a business has some unfortunate features that drive its pathologies. The overhead of the infrastructure is very high and the marginal cost for adding a customer is relatively low. When there's more than on…

> I don't know anyone who's frustrated with their electrical or gas service.

Only because they're not paying attention. Electric and water utilities are limping along with century-old plant in many cases. They have little incentive to invest in less-polluting or safer technologies, and not much capital dollars with which to do it.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a clear difference between these resources. If you could use 100 times more electricity and water at the same cost (with no damage to the environment), would you? We might find uses for doing that, if those resources weren't relatively scarce. If you give an average consumer a 10tb hard drive, will they use it all? Probably not even close. The amount of storage wasted by consumers is beyond epic, thrown away…

The waste is less, if you weight storage by performance or energy efficiency. Then, we're throwing away low-yield storage and replacing it with high-octane storage. The 'waste factor' becomes small. Also consider most discarded storage is a fraction of the size of what it is replaced by. So the fraction of waste is always small (compared to its absolute value).

Right, and that's another way in which bandwidth, storage and processing power as resources have absolutely nothing in common with water or electricity. The ability to waste exponentially greater amounts each generation.

Do I need to watch a late night talk show at 1080 on YouTube instead of 720? No, it has only modest impact on my experience, but I do it anyway because there's no cost associated to doing so. I can freely waste vast amounts of bandwidth (or storage, or processing power) with minimum concern, rather than focusing on conservation.

My phone is another marvel in that regard. It costs $0.50 per year in electricity, about 1% to 2% of what my desktop PC consumes. I can waste my phone's resources freely with very minimum concerns for the environment, especially relative to most other things in my house or life that use electricity.

Water and electricity will never have these properties. It's unlikely the average person will ever be able to waste vast amounts of either without concern.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#306
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> New entrants are trying to compete in the market place. One proven effective way to gain a foothold in a market with entrenched players is to offer a loss leader. We could more than make up for this hypothetical disadvantage by regulating the big players to share their last mile infrastructure like we've done with cell towers and land lines. A MUCH bigger issue than ISPs startups is that the next Facebook, Twitter,…

First, offering an alternative solution is not a necessary component of arguing that a given proposal is objectively bad. Here's an excerpt from another point in this thread: >If regulation must occur, then I would prefer to see it happen in a manner that increases rather than decreases my choices. Forbidding a certain pricing strategy does not increase my choices. If regulation must occur, then I'd like to see somet…

First of all, I don't buy your argument that the proposal is bad. Your hypothetical situation where net neutrality could harm startups is so contrived it almost sounds like you are trolling. The odds of a future ISP competing by brokering a deal with the big content providers to undercut the established ISPs is never going to happen.

The government failed to protect most of us from living under a broadband monopoly. It's a bitter pill to swallow but the only solution is regulation. If you want to sunset net neutrality rules after 90% of Americans have a real broadband choice, fine. But until that day comes, internet startups and broadband customers alike need net neutrality regulations.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a sinking feeling that all this will result in is a situation where monopolies are given out to the existing players and no one is forced to do anything to upgrade the existing service. It's naive to think it would be anything but this. We like the Internet as it is today but for some reason we need to have the FCC control it in order to try to keep it the way it is.

>We like the Internet as it is today Who likes the way things are? I'd like it a lot better if it was more like in Japan, Korea, Latvia, Hungary, Finland, Sweden, France, ...etc.

Serious question - how do the median consumer bandwidth speeds in the US compare to France?

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#309
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every cable company in every city I've lived in the USA has been a locally granted monopoly with the city extracting massive amounts of money from the monthly cable bill in "Franchise" fees. In no city is the cable company actually a "locally granted monopoly." Every franchise agreement I've seen points out that it's non-exclusive. Technologists have a fundamental misconception that leads to a lot of cognitive diss…

The cable franchise agreements are exclusive. That's why you don't see two companies offering cable service. If they weren't you other companies would compete. Regarding wireless, you don't seem to understand how the industry is structured. While it's true there are many brand names on the shelf in walmart, there are only 3 actual providers in a given metro region. Virgin, for instance, uses Sprints network, which is…

> The cable franchise agreements are exclusive. That's why you don't see two companies offering cable service. If they weren't you other companies would compete.

Nope.[1] Exclusive franchise agreements are illegal under federal law since 1996. There is no competition because the business proposition sucks. The only sensible play in most places is to try and target a niche market of wealthy neighborhoods that'll pay for the triple play. That is prohibited under most franchise agreements.

Four nationwide competitors isn't a monopoly any more than Pepsi and Coke are, who own almost all soft drink brands.

[1] e.g. http://www.wilmingtonde.gov/docs/1320/3716Rev1.pdf (Second whereas paragraph).

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#310
post #167
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree entirely, it is comparable to a power outage (, which happens quite often both at my residence and place of work).

Do you live in a jungle or something? Everywhere I've ever lived, including California during the Enron scandal , power outages were an order of magnitude less common than (non-power-outage-related) internet outages.

In Santa Clara County, at my home with Sonic.net Legacy DSL (AT&T DSLAM + ATM/Sonic.net IP), in the past 10 years, I can only recall two internet outages. In one, the telephone was out as well (a fiber cut between the remote terminal and the central office), the most recent one started around the same time as a 30 minute power outage.

In contrast, I've had several 30 minute to 2 hour power outages, and lots of power outages lasting less than a minute.

On the other hand, a short internet outage would not necessarily be noticed, because there's not a big change in ambient noise when the internet fails, nor do i have to reset the time on my appliances.

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