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Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

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301–310 of 410 posts

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#301
post #32

I hope people don't forget the profit motive of Mr Musk. It seems technology entrepreneurs have adopted the rhetoric of "just trying to make the world a better place" while conveniently ignoring their own profit making motives. I am no friend of car dealers but I am also not going to be suckered by a self-serving sales pitch. While I don't necessarily support the NJ move, I think we should start asking questions abou…

Elon made enough off PayPal to never have to work.. ever again . Instead he put all of his money into Electric cars, solar power and rockets with a huge chance that he would loose it all (and almost did). I don't think that profit is his motivating factor.

Let's not forget the $500M loan Uncle Sam, er, The American Taxpayers, made to Musk, which in the case of Tesla failing, would have been a write off for us, but in the case of Tesla succeeding, only makes us a bit of interest, while making a billionaire more billions.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#302
post #103

Musk is massively disingenuous and rather insulting to our intelligence. But he's a heck of a salesman and makes a wonderful car. Like many persuasive people he arrives at an answer and backs into rationale but makes it appear the other way around. I'll give you just one example. The law of the land in NJ is that you can't sell in NJ unless through a dealership. That's the current law. Those laws need to change to al…

"Musk is massively disingenuous and rather insulting to our intelligence. But he's a heck of a salesman " Agree. And makes you wonder a bit about the marketing materials surrounding these cars, huh? He's trying to make as if he's acting in the best interest of the people of the state of NJ. When it is very clear that his motivation is his own interests and selling his car. And making more money for himself. Most busi…

What is amazing to me about your comment is that you have harsh words for Musk without any defense whatsoever of why the law is just.

What is "immature" about calling out a stupid and corrupt law?

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#303
post #233

The truth is, car dealerships, which are mostly locally owned, are a way for a state to boost revenue capture and generate jobs. In New Jersey, not being able to pump your own gas is the same deal. Look at the economics of a Tesla dealership, for every car sold in New Jersey, how much of that money stays in New Jersey? And let's be honest, being a car salesman is not the most lucrative or respectable of trades. The j…

So now none of the money or jobs stay in NJ... I don't see the logic. If they wanted the tax money they would want Tesla to sell a lot of cars in NJ.

That's not the right way to think about it. Taxes are only a small portion of the economic activity a bunch of car dealerships in a state generate. A dealer gets to keep some of that profit margin that Tesla gets 100% of right now. They then pay the dealership owner (1 job), the receptionist (2 jobs), the finance guy (3 jobs) and pay the commission to the sales guy (4 jobs) and then you bring back the car to the repair center manager (5 jobs) the mechanic (6 jobs) the car wash guy (7 jobs). There's also the sales tax on the car + the income tax for those 4 people + the consumption taxes on those people as they go about their daily lives. All those people then go out in the local economy and eat pizza and do whatever other local economic activity people do with their money. Which also generates more jobs.

In the Tesla model, you eliminate all those for a "test drive experience genius" or whatever they call it, 3 or 4 to a "test drive experience center", NJ gets the sales tax on the car, and whatever they can squeeze out of the 3 or 4 guys who work at the Tesla dealership and the 2 mechanics who work in back.

If Tesla, an extremely minor player in the industry right now, gets to do this, why doesn't everybody else? Overnight all those endless seas of car dealerships, representing millions upon millions of dollars NJ wants to capture into it's state economy go bankrupt and now nearly all of the money is going to CA, Japan and Detroit with a handful of in-state jobs to man the direct-to-consumer "test drive centers". And now for the out-of-work accountant or phone engineer? He used to have a chance to at least work a commission only car salesman job for a few months till he found better work. Now he has nothing to go to in the interim and overall state unemployment ticks up a half percentage point.

As an engineer I see lots of built-in inefficiency in all this. So I understand the HN outrage. But NJ doesn't want efficiency, they want people in jobs and off welfare. Each person in a job is a chance for the State to capture a few hundred dollars off of each car sold -- not as taxes, but as GDP (which will eventually float the government's coffers as taxes anyways), rather than paying out for social welfare programs. It's in the interest of good governance to have an inefficient system, so that there's lots of places citizens in the state can reach into the car-to-consumer pipeline and extract some money from it. And they can do all this without having to put in place unpopular social welfare programs or increase taxes or some other public works program because they can regulate the private market to force it to be more inefficient than it should be.

From a macro perspective, NJ's behavior here is completely rational. I don't agree with it personally, I think there's better ways to do this. But it's easy to explain without resorting to name calling or disparaging thinking about the competency of NJ's governing officials.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#304
post #7

It blows my mind that in a country that preaches a free-market economy, the government is preventing a company from selling a superior product. I'm pretty sure people will still buy the car if they want to, and in time, those car companies will go under anyway, but why slow down progress?

Remember that the US is not pro-business, it's corporatist. It's a government that is able to be easily captured by incumbent, monied interests. Starting businesses and operating them on a small level is much easier in other developed nations.

Like the Economist wrote about George W Bush: "Being pro-business is not the same thing as being pro-market".

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#305
post #298

Paternalistic meddling with free consumer choices is always fraught with peril. Sometimes it is necessary to protect important principles in society. You can't discriminate based on race - that limits choice but who would support the contrary? You can't defraud people in selling products - ditto. You can't buy land to build a smokestack plant in a quiet residential neighborhood - ditto. Many other examples might be c…

>Paternalistic meddling with free consumer choices is always fraught with peril. Actually I'd say that governments typically get away with paternalistic medding with free consumer choices. Elon Musk has the right of this argument, and it's heartening to see a CEO take aim at the politicians that are doing that paternalistic meddling. But I don't see Tesla's CEO fighting back against paternalistic governmental meddlin…

Aren't the CAFE standards to offset the emissions and damage caused by them since you can't directly bill that to an individual user of a specific car? It seems like it would be better to just add a carbon tax to gasoline but I assume that is significantly more unpalatable than the CAFE standards. Tesla's portion of a tax with similar intent is baked into the cost of electricity so consumers pay for it gradually rather than in a lump sum when purchasing the car.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#306
post #298

Paternalistic meddling with free consumer choices is always fraught with peril. Sometimes it is necessary to protect important principles in society. You can't discriminate based on race - that limits choice but who would support the contrary? You can't defraud people in selling products - ditto. You can't buy land to build a smokestack plant in a quiet residential neighborhood - ditto. Many other examples might be c…

>Paternalistic meddling with free consumer choices is always fraught with peril. Actually I'd say that governments typically get away with paternalistic medding with free consumer choices. Elon Musk has the right of this argument, and it's heartening to see a CEO take aim at the politicians that are doing that paternalistic meddling. But I don't see Tesla's CEO fighting back against paternalistic governmental meddlin…

Conventional gas cars produce massive negative externalities that, if not accounted for (by charging any of the parties indirectly or directly involved in producing them), lead to market inefficiencies. The very nature of externalities makes it that they are very difficult to accurately measure, but rest assured, whatever extra cost new CAFE standards bring is not merely a drop in the bucket for the damage already produced and unremedied.

So here the government is ensuring a more efficient and free market, not doing any "paternalistic meddling".

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#307
TL;DR: Elon Musk disagrees with the decision and viciously attacks Chris Christie , Auto Dealers, the State of NJ and compares their reasoning to the mafia. He also encourages you to buy a tesla car before the laws take into effect. Tesla will continue to lobby and possibly sue for a change.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#308
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consumer who may consider a Tesla in the future, I like and appreciate this dig. Christie did something underhanded again, let's bring it up to strengthen Tesla's claim that something fishy happened.

I can't agree with calling this underhanded on Christie's part. The law, while stupid, actually is the law, not a creation of the governor's or regulator's discretion. See his justification: "This administration does not find it appropriate to unilaterally change the way cars are sold in New Jersey without legislation and Tesla has been aware of this position since the beginning."[1] It would be far more underhanded…

>Governor Christie had promised that this would be put to a vote of the elected state legislature, which is the appropriate way to change the law. When it became apparent to the auto dealer lobby that this approach would not succeed, they cut a backroom deal with the Governor to circumvent the legislative process and pass a regulation that is fundamentally contrary to the intent of the law.

How is this not underhanded? It'd be unilaterally preventing the changing of the law since he didn't even allow it to enter the regular legislative process.

He saw it coming and shut it down before it could go through the normal legislative process. Yes, that is underhanded.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#309
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree with calling this underhanded on Christie's part. The law, while stupid, actually is the law, not a creation of the governor's or regulator's discretion. See his justification: "This administration does not find it appropriate to unilaterally change the way cars are sold in New Jersey without legislation and Tesla has been aware of this position since the beginning."[1] It would be far more underhanded…

>Governor Christie had promised that this would be put to a vote of the elected state legislature, which is the appropriate way to change the law. When it became apparent to the auto dealer lobby that this approach would not succeed, they cut a backroom deal with the Governor to circumvent the legislative process and pass a regulation that is fundamentally contrary to the intent of the law. How is this not underhande…

I stand corrected. I didn't know that part of the story.

Re: Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey

#310
post #111
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except at a service center there's presumably the opportunity to replace the firmware chip or board if they brick it during the update whereas a bad OTA update leaves you little option. OTOH I'd risk a bad OTA update 1% of the time if it meant avoiding the service center the other 99% of the time. And I'm sure a bad update is just a call and a tow away from a fix at a Tesla service center. Unless you're on a road-tri…

You might want to turn off updates during road trips.

You don't really take Teslas for roadtrips(at the moment - when the supercharger network gets finished...maybe)
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