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Are coders worth it?

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Re: Are coders worth it?

#301

Post by Chris2048 »

abraininavat wrote: post #221
gte910h wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He understands you. He just disagrees and thinks your metaphor is wrong.

He understands you. He just disagrees and thinks your metaphor is wrong. First of all, let him speak for himself. Or do you claim to read his thoughts? Secondly, no he doesn't seem to understand. The statement he disagreed with was: We cannot put software on the kind of assembly line/stamping process which is obviously a point about the fact that we have no assembly line process for writing new software. He replied w…

> let him speak for himself. Or do you claim to read his thoughts?

Is mind-reading the only way people can understand each other? Words don't seem that unreliable.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#302

Post by coderguy123 »

IT/developer scene in big NYC banks is even worse. People with no experience faking up resume get business analyst/QA position cramming some basic skills in few weeks and they are paid $55/hr for doing nothing. This cannot last, can it?

Re: Are coders worth it?

#303

Post by fieryeagle »

damoncali wrote: post #170
fieryeagle wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the whole thing and my opinion is now slightly more favourable yet I maintain my point of "see more, hear more". I get the author's standpoint yet it irks me that he seems to think the majority of web developers out there are overpaid for doing less than meaningful work. What about those who cursed the job day in day out but stuck with it for the paycheck while looking out? Do they question the same things? Yes,…

I don't think he's suggesting they're overpaid. He's just wondering how much he's contributing to the world, despite his high pay and societal praise. If anything, I think it points out the fallacy of thinking that our pay and our personal interpretation of our "worth" are in actuality totally disconnected, although we may feel differently. He feels, I would imagine, some angst over the fact that his contribution to…

Very true, for that I wholeheartedly agree and I do admire his earnestness in pointing what many may have noticed but chosen to ignore anyway.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#304

Post by [deleted] »

damoncali wrote: post #170
fieryeagle wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the whole thing and my opinion is now slightly more favourable yet I maintain my point of "see more, hear more". I get the author's standpoint yet it irks me that he seems to think the majority of web developers out there are overpaid for doing less than meaningful work. What about those who cursed the job day in day out but stuck with it for the paycheck while looking out? Do they question the same things? Yes,…

I don't think he's suggesting they're overpaid. He's just wondering how much he's contributing to the world, despite his high pay and societal praise. If anything, I think it points out the fallacy of thinking that our pay and our personal interpretation of our "worth" are in actuality totally disconnected, although we may feel differently. He feels, I would imagine, some angst over the fact that his contribution to…

[deleted]

Re: Are coders worth it?

#305

Post by bjhoops1 »

jacques_chester wrote: post #273
bjhoops1 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Just because "is" will never fully attain to "ought" does not make vain the pursuit of a better, more just world. > Attempts to browbeat the world out of "is" and into "ought" have been universal failures There are so many examples (a single one of which disproves your "universal" claim) of idealists bring "is" more into alignment with "ought" that it would be almost impertinent to even begin enumerating th…

I wasn't speaking of all cases of is/ought. I was referring to the idea that virtuous jobs should be valuable jobs and vice versa -- that the system of production can be turned to produce according to a ranking function of virtue. Civil rights and suffrage aren't jobs or economic production; they're matters of custom and law, which Hayek also discusses as similar but distinct forms of spontaneous order. You correctly…

I would certainly agree that the methods for bringing virtuous and valuable jobs more into alignment are quite limited, and it is a vain pursuit to hope to bring them into perfect harmony. However, I would disagree with my libertarian friends and say that such limited methods as we have are worth employing, and new ones are worth seeking out, as the endeavor has merit. The difficult part is finding a balance between seeking to control and throwing our hands up and saying "nothing can be done."

As an aside, I agree that this is a very difficult proposition for incomes, but gains are to be made with a strong public sector which provides numerous basic services such as healthcare, education, and affordable subsidized housing, so that the unfortunate man with a virtuous job of little economic value is not left out in the cold. Or dying of long-undiagnosed cancer due to lack of access to prohibitively expensive preventive care, like my wife's cousin is currently.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#306

Post by [deleted] »

jacques_chester wrote: post #273
bjhoops1 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Just because "is" will never fully attain to "ought" does not make vain the pursuit of a better, more just world. > Attempts to browbeat the world out of "is" and into "ought" have been universal failures There are so many examples (a single one of which disproves your "universal" claim) of idealists bring "is" more into alignment with "ought" that it would be almost impertinent to even begin enumerating th…

I wasn't speaking of all cases of is/ought. I was referring to the idea that virtuous jobs should be valuable jobs and vice versa -- that the system of production can be turned to produce according to a ranking function of virtue. Civil rights and suffrage aren't jobs or economic production; they're matters of custom and law, which Hayek also discusses as similar but distinct forms of spontaneous order. You correctly…

[deleted]

Re: Are coders worth it?

#307

Post by boomlinde »

bennyg wrote: post #206
nekopa wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how long will this idea of 'fusing thoughts and intellectual processes' remain the sole domain of humans? Besides from some creative leaps, a lot of this has to do with logic: knowing what works where and when. I'm working on an idea tied to literate programming where someone can tell a story of what they want a program to do, put it in a wiki, and then programmers can edit the wiki to add in the actual software…

That sounds awesome. I've dreamed of a context-aware, natural language programming language: Change value of potatoes to 10. (potatoes = 10). Make potatoes equal 10. (potatoes = 10). Give every person at the dinner table a potato. (for x = 0; x Etcetera.

It's a neat idea, but I don't think it's particularly useful. Natural language is an unnecessary abstraction that will not help you solve the problem, unless the problem in itself is about grasping the syntactic peculiarities of your language of choice. From your examples, it seems like it would just be a very verbose way of defining a solution to a problem in basically the same way you do in any imperative language.

Syntax should be the least of concerns, and even if it wasn't, involving the subtleties and ambiguities of english language wouldn't be the solution.

EDIT: I don't mean to say that a natural language programming language couldn't be useful, but I'm arguing that it won't be unless you can use natural language to move closer to the problem domain, rather than abstracting the solution description further.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#308

Post by Dewie »

bokglobule wrote: post #178
willholloway wrote: post #160

Am I the only one that wants coders to stop feeling guilty and devaluing themselves? The plumber analogy is off base. Web development is incredibly more complex than plumbing in a home. Importantly, web development changes extremely fast while plumbing is largely the same as it has been for decades. The web and the developers that have created all of the sites and apps on top of it has added tremendous value to our e…

As a developer who also knows plumbing (and other trades), I'd beg to differ. When I talk to neighbors and friends, most of whom are highly "technical", they look at me in disbelief when I suggest they resolve a plumbing (or carpentry or mechanical) issue on their own. I get the "I have no idea where to start", or "I don't have any tools", and so on. It's not a lack of available information, it's the fear, in many ca…

Just because there are more ramifications doesn't make it more complex. Proving a mathematical conjecture is more complex than driving a forklift, even though driving a forklift is dangerous to yourself and your surroundings if you aren't careful, while solving a mathematical conjecture might give you a paper cut at worst.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#309

Post by reefoctopus »

nilkn wrote: post #258

Oh boy, I have a lot of comments here, most of them in agreement with the article but not all. According to all the anecdotal knowledge I have, my conclusion has been that currently software engineering and chemical engineering are tied for the locally optimal career choice for those with a four year degree or less. While some college graduates (or dropouts) will go become billionaires, as a general rule, it is quite…

Software engineering -> Harvard/Wharton MBA -> McKinsey -> CEO

Re: Are coders worth it?

#310

Post by kaspm »

Paul_D_Santana wrote: post #298
kaspm wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| put in long hours and do very good work And in addition, you have to have the mental fortitude for this kind of career. Despite not being "well-known" there is an intense amount of competition from a group of the most ambitious people in the world. Being able to compete at that level is insanely hard, much harder than than being a software engineer. I have had the fortune in my life to attempt both careers. I went…

I like the way you think, especially with regards to happiness, and I would love to hear more about this part: > and for god sakes, travel I'm very fortunate to have a position where I work exactly 40 hours (some of which is programming). This has allowed me the freedom to pursue other activities, such as meeting and developing an extremely deep relationship with my girlfriend, being an active participant in my churc…

In context it was meant as reference to the story of Bangladesh, meaning you don't know how lucky you are until you travel a bit of the world.

My story however, is pretty typical, I worked through my 20s and didn't take time to travel then even though I had disposable income and more importantly was in charge of only myself. When I got married, got a dog and had kids, traveling increases in complexity at O(an^k) where k is the number of people traveling together and a is the number of people you have to arrange babysitting (or dogsitting) for.

Now travel seems like a giant luxury an I doubt I will truly enjoy it again until the kids are in college. By then we'll be so bogged down with college costs, there will be no money.

I had the opportunity to go to China for work and it really opened my eyes about how little of the world I have seen.

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