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Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

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Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#301

Post by nandemo »

mseebach wrote: post #137
sopooneo wrote: post #90

Why are the salaries so much lower than in the States? I know part of it is that demand outstrips supply here, so perhaps my question resolves to why there is less demand. I assume that the point of software is that it can be an efficiency multiplier, so if you hire someone to automate a process, that is either reducing costs or increasing revenue, which should be fundamentally valuable. I am deeply ignorant here and…

They're not lower than in the States, they are lower than the bay area, which is a very, very small bit of the States. Also, it's dominated by a particular kind of business (VC funded startups) that have the cash and mandate to spend a lot of money on engineering salaries. These are not too common outside the bay area, and certainly not as concentrated anywhere.

I'm not sure how the relative geographical size of the Bay Area is relevant here. In terms of programming jobs, the Bay Area is a very significant part of the US.

In any case, this and other polls indicate that programmer salaries in London are also lower than in many other large American metropolitan areas, not only SV. I did a quick search on Indeed for software engineer salaries in several American cities (NYC, Seattle, Chicago, Boston, Houston, Austin, Portland, Miami, whatever came to my mind) and in all of them the average salary is over U$85k. In fact I also searched for junior software engineer and in all of them it's at least U$60k, still within the £40~45k range which is the mode of the poll (and presumably filled with mostly non-junior developers).

If you look at average programming salaries in Tokyo or Paris you'll see a similar thing. The interesting question is not why London salaries are "low", but how come American salaries are so high.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#302

Post by nilkn »

VexXtreme wrote: post #38
SandB0x wrote: post #13

The software industry here in London is really badly paid, for salaried jobs outside finance at least. I know plenty of developers who started at £20-25k as graduates from decent universities and whose salary has slowly risen to 40k over quite a few years. PhD graduates making £35-45k too.

That tends to be the case mostly everywhere in Europe. For that matter, most places in the world outside the US (and Silicon Valley) tend not to pay software engineers very competitively. I am from a fairly small central European country and programmers there barely make more than other professions; the salaries often amount to the national average.

> For that matter, most places in the world outside the US (and Silicon Valley) tend not to pay software engineers very competitively.

In the US, my experience is that software developers generally are paid competitively. CS and chemical engineering graduates routinely get the highest starting salaries all around the country when it comes to four year degrees.

That starting salary may be $100k in Silicon Valley, $80k in Chicago, and $60k in Nashville, but all three numbers are competitive relative to the local market. In fact, you will find that in comparison to the cost of housing $100k in Silicon Valley is not quite as well paid as you think.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#303

Post by bloat »

strongvigilance wrote: post #14
beaumartinez wrote: post #6

"At least 200k" full-time , wow. For anyone who's on that type of salary, what role and industry is it? CTO-level?

London has a big financial sector, so a lot of the big pay packets probably come from there - hedge funds, banks, HFT etc. See here: http://jobs.efinancialcareers.co.uk/Information_Technology.h...

I've been in working in investment banks for 10 years and I've never seen any base salaries this high. If these answers are true then they must include a very generous bonus or be at hedge funds.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#305

Post by graue »

petercooper wrote: post #282
acangiano wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote-work-friendly companies can capitalize on that.

They sure do :) Can't name names but I know at least one of the biggest (and wealthiest) companies in the Rails apps scene pays its remote employees a fair wage by where those employees live , not by what would be acceptable in Chicago.

Wait a sec, are you implying the remote employees live somewhere with a lower cost of living than Chicago? In my experience Chicago is pretty darn cheap, comparable to a place like Berlin.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#306

Post by akie »

dschiptsov wrote: post #299
gaius wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the legacy of the old class system rearing its ugly head. No matter how well educated, and from what prestigious colleges, (software) engineering is blue-collar work and will never be as well paid as the "graduate management fast-track" type with a sociology degree from a "red brick". Finance isn't highly paid for software work, it's fairly paid, by world standards, only because they contrary to popular belief,…

There is more in "the old class system" (or the caste system) than just attending elite college. It is genes. You like it or not, breeding matters a lot. What all those companies buy is not grades, it is not even a particular phenotype, it is a few generations of fine breeding, well-educated parents and relatives, etc. So, most of those guys "with a sociology degree" worth it, you like it or not. It is just one of th…

First of all: genes? Do you seriously believe that? I'd like to see some citations for that, if you don't mind. I think you're farcically misrepresenting the nature vs nurture debate here.

In general, people with well-off, well-educated parents tend to do better than people who have undereducated poor parents. If you ask me, that's an argument for making sure we have less poor parents and for making sure that more people have a proper education, and not an argument for unfounded admiration for supposedly superior genes.

It's an argument for socialism, not for elitism.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#307

Post by rdl »

tptacek wrote: post #275
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How employment markets work, and fairness, are not the same thing. It's not a misconception, it's a criticism. And of course in the real world, wages are not based on supply and demand. They're based on leverage and BATNA. Simply put, given two equal employees (hypothetically, if it were possible to measure this), it's not "fair" to give one $50k and one $300k. It's not about the prevailing wage, it's about the contr…

No, the argument you're making is irrational. You're a $100k/yr FTE dev. A VP above you makes $200k/yr. You believe that VP should be making $50k/yr. But your position isn't improved at all if they do. You're still making $100k/yr, and someone else is taking the $150k/yr premium. So you say, "no, I should get a share of that $150k/yr premium." Well, OK, why aren't you? What you're saying is that you're worth more tha…

Equity grants are somewhat more rival than cash salary, though.

If a company has 5% to give to employees in a certain year, VPs getting 1% does increase the odds an engineer will get 0.03% instead of 0.1%.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#308

Post by ricardobeat »

tptacek wrote: post #290
infinity0 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most anti-rational anti-worker worthless "explanation" I have ever heard. What other people make is definitely not an orthogonal concern, and is hugely relevant. Your justification of not caring about other people earning more is incredibly short-sighted. Yes, it does improve my position if other people earn less, because that money is then available for the company to use on other things, such as paying…

How are you better off if an overpaid VP is laid off and replaced with a cheaper VC? Try to be specific. The word "irrational" doesn't mean "idiotic", by the way.

The company has an extra $150k to spend on everyone else, R&D or sales, or distribute as profit. I think it's a net positive (for the employee, company and/or society).

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#309

Post by kayoone »

X4 wrote: post #213

Frighteningly underpaid! I am sure this is true for other parts of Europe too, especially Germany though. People undersell themselves, because they still believe in the so called "crisis", or have no clue about their own value.

true! I am from germany and i believe you can transfer these poll results quite accurately to germany by just changing GBP to EUR (1 EUR = 0.85 GBP)

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#310

Post by switch007 »

mrstew wrote: post #93
SandB0x wrote: post #13

The software industry here in London is really badly paid, for salaried jobs outside finance at least. I know plenty of developers who started at £20-25k as graduates from decent universities and whose salary has slowly risen to 40k over quite a few years. PhD graduates making £35-45k too.

Hmmm, this is pretty different to my experience (as both employee and employer), perhaps it depends on the skillset and exact location. I have a (non-finance related) start-up in central London and it's pretty difficult to find skilled developers with 4-5 years experience who are asking for less than £50k p/a.

Yes. Some people actually really dislike London (i.e. won't sacrifice to live/work there) and £50k is probably the minimum to consider commuting.
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