SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas • Hacker News Board

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#301

Post by josh-j » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:02 PM UTC

paranoiacblack wrote: post #256

josh-j wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's all a bit silly. We have a common understanding or definition of what racism is and it connotes something immoral. _Some_ sociologists define racism as something else which also connotes something immoral. The common thread is that both definitions connote immorality, and so if something falls under either definition, it's still bad and so the whole arguing over which definition to use is moot. For example, if…

No, you're missing that racism is a systematic oppression of a certain group or people. HN isn't the best place for speaking about social issues, so I won't write you an essay about what's wrong about what you're saying. I'll just say I believe you and others are conflating the terms prejudice and racism. I'm guessing that's what you're describing by "common-usage-racis[m]." Indeed, black people can be prejudiced aga…

You're lacking an understanding of linguistics and philosophy. Both usages are no more correct than the other, and the point of such usages is to ascribe a connotation to a cluster of things along a continuum. Arguing over definitions is pointless (I can create my own definition of racism and it will be equally valid), the point is what they connote.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#302

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:02 PM UTC

RougeFemme wrote: post #251

blindhippo wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it sure as hell was not a "good business decision". They got attacked by errant children expressing sad rage at something that while bad, was not deserving of retaliation against the company. So the result: the company ditches one of their employees for very dubious reasons. Basically they caved to internet bullying and validated every sexist moron on the internet. Well done Sendgrid. Well done.

Maybe not a "good" business decision, but an "understandable" one. If the "errant children" are among the group she was evangelizing to, she clearly could not have been effective in her job, especially since the "errant children's" peers were not coming to her defense - at least not in large numbers, as far as Sendgrid was concerned. I do hate that they caved to bullying/blackmail. I would like to see both fired part…

Most of the DDOS stuff probably came from teenage 4channers rather than professional python developers. At least I hope so.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#303

Post by nettdata » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:03 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #282

nettdata wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. She made a big stink about what she overheard in a private conversation between two friends, and posted it on Twitter. Probably would not have been a big deal except that one of them, a father of three, was fired as a result. Not her direct doing, but seemingly a consequence of her actions. She then was found to be a bit of a hypocrite, based on her own tweets: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/31226509179…

> She then makes some strangely bizarre comments about racism Actually, that was not "then", that was 4 years ago. Doesn't make it any less wrong or racist, just saying that it's not connected to this scandal.

True. My bad, and edited previous comment appropriately.

Seems that she got the attention she sought, but it quickly became a case of "be careful what you wish for". A little bit of digging into her tweet history brought some real gems to the forefront which didn't help her current situation.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#304

Post by raganwald » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:03 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #258

raganwald wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? People say the same things all the time in companies where women complain about inappropriate sexuality. "What if I say something that offends her?" Most of us are good, inoffensive people. We are saddled with growing up in a world that is changing. It used to be accept…

[deleted]

Reminder: She didn't "get anyone fired." Two employers chose to fire employees.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#305

Post by jack-r-abbit » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:03 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #219

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? People say the same things all the time in companies where women complain about inappropriate sexuality. "What if I say something that offends her?" Most of us are good, inoffensive people. We are saddled with growing up in a world that is changing. It used to be accept…

> these things are hard

BOOM.. fired! See what happened there? You said it. I overreacted. You were fired. It actually is a real fear that something you say will unknowingly offend someone and get you in trouble. This has less to do with gender and sexism and more to do with just too many people being incapable of getting along.

> automatically act in ways that don't offend anyone.

Impossible. Everything is capable of offending someone. And everyone is offended by something. I would rather strive for a future generation that was not so easily offended.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#306

Post by joshstrange » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:04 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #279

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same > room as this person. What if I accidentally say > something that she finds offensive? Am I next? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around her at all, because I find it very easy to avoid saying sexually inappropriate things to women I don't know. I have quite an off-color sense of humor myself. I joke a lot and a lot of those jokes involve sex, bodily functions,…

But that is the problem, "I find it very easy to avoid saying sexually inappropriate things to women I don't know." They weren't talking to her or even about her. They had their own conversation and she overheard it and instead of being an adult and turning around to say something she tweeted it and caused someone to lose their job.

I too can keep from saying sexually inappropriate things to women however that is not what happened in this case.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#307

Post by tomp » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:04 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #279

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same > room as this person. What if I accidentally say > something that she finds offensive? Am I next? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around her at all, because I find it very easy to avoid saying sexually inappropriate things to women I don't know. I have quite an off-color sense of humor myself. I joke a lot and a lot of those jokes involve sex, bodily functions,…

Maybe you were just brought up differently, or there is some other cause for you behaviour that is different from the grandparent's. Doesn't make you any better, though.

Personally, I don't have a hard time controlling myself and not saying things. However, I don't want to control myself; I prefer to just say what I feel like saying, and I allow people to disassociate from me if they don't like it. I'm terribly annoyed by people that put words before actions and judge other by what they say. Having said that, if an employer fired me because they would find me unlikable, I wouldn't blame them.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#308

Post by joshdotsmith » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:04 PM UTC

Aloisius wrote: post #95

I can't help but feel that if I, as a male, had posted the same tweet in response to some obnoxious guys behind me making situationally inappropriate comments and I was in her shoes as an evangelist at the time, no one would have batted an eye. Granted, I probably wouldn't have written a long blog post about it, but I've certainly talked to event organizers in the past about obnoxious people before and had them eject…

Talking to event organizers is an order of magnitude different from what happened here. I'd like to believe the same outcome would have happened in this instance even if it were you.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#309

Post by andrewguenther » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:04 PM UTC

kalkin wrote: post #189

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

A bunch of sexist loons attack somebody, and the right thing to do is fire her because it proves she isn't a good evangelist anymore? Seems to me that's awarding a really dangerous amount of power to sexist loons on the Internet. ... I suppose I should defend the "sexist loons" label. It would be one thing if people were attacking PlayHaven. They're the ones who made the decision to overreact to Adria's post and fire…

While none of us can say for sure what SendGrid's exact reasons were for firing her, I don't think the "sexist loons" are it.

While representing her employer at a conference, she unnecessarily publicly shamed two developers. Like I've said before, none of this should have ever left Pycon.

Then (and what I think was the nail in the coffin) she made her "my employer supports me" tweet. SendGrid had made no comment about the incident, and now she has directly connected them to it.

So now, claiming she has SendGrid's support, in her capacity as a developer evangelist, she has publicly shamed two people in the demographic her position requires her to build relations with.

That is what I think proved she is not a good evangelist anymore.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#310

Post by jmagoon » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:05 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #279

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same > room as this person. What if I accidentally say > something that she finds offensive? Am I next? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around her at all, because I find it very easy to avoid saying sexually inappropriate things to women I don't know. I have quite an off-color sense of humor myself. I joke a lot and a lot of those jokes involve sex, bodily functions,…

Agreed. It always strikes me as so odd when men say things like, "I have to walk on eggshells around that person, because they're constantly getting offended."

News flash, it's not that hard to not offend people, and men aren't suddenly forerunners of liberal thought because we don't make sexist or racist jokes. I mean, Jesus. Pretend you're speaking to your mother if it's really that hard.