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“Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

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Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#301

Post by hakunin »

pdpi wrote: post #174
hakunin wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with those customers. That's like saying "building a car is not hard, building a real car that you can use and that passes regulation is". IOW, writing code is hard in every reasonable context.

Speaking/writing English is easy. Writing literature at the level of Shakespeare is hard. Writing educational content that makes hard concepts accessible like Grant Sanderson is hard. Likewise, coding is easy. It's just writing, and any child can learn it. Coding is not programming, and the hard part of the job lives in that distinction.

Why does it have to be Shakespeare? There are millions of good writers that got there by working hard. Seems pointless to go into either extreme, when just being good at anything is generally hard.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#302

Post by a3w »

Coding something for the second time is much easier. Therefore, coding is easier than some other tasks in software engineering. Getting the spec is usually the harder part, except if following the spec is for really complicated products, like "one does not simply rewrite VIM" shows.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#303

Post by hakunin »

woodruffw wrote: post #51
hakunin wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with those customers. That's like saying "building a car is not hard, building a real car that you can use and that passes regulation is". IOW, writing code is hard in every reasonable context.

How many programmers operate under that kind of regulatory and operational constraint regime? I think most don’t. (In interesting ways this is programming’s greatest boon and curse: if we treated it more like building bridges or cars, the world would be a very different place.)

That's why I said "that you can use AND meets regulation". All software on average.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#304

Post by zabzonk »

ivanjermakov wrote: post #244
prinny_ wrote: post #72

I believe there are some programming jobs in which the code is absolutely the easier part. Not all of us work in signal processing, integrated systems or have to push upstream to Linux kernel because the company we work for really needs a memory allocation optimization for its data centers. Navigating customer requirements and building something that satisfies both market's needs and company strategy can be an incred…

I'm yet to work on an enterprise project where programming is beyond simple validation, simple SQL, simple sheduling, simple mapping, simple error handling. Might be more about web backend than the whole field, but the challenge always comes from formulating requirements in a rigid form with all edge cases considered. This might be the reason why many personal projects are so technical and impressive - it's the itch…

Trading systems? Most complex things I've worked on.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#305

Post by qurren »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #275
qurren wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In large corporate environments with multiple international customers, code is most of the time not the hardest problem. This is true, and this is the thing that makes me want to not be part of this dumb system anymore. If leadership on the same company can't align, that shouldn't be my problem, and I hope they get replaced by AIs that can. Humans suck.

Would add this is not exclusive to large corporations either. My smaller employer is also struggling hard because leadership simply cannot prioritize. Everything is either not being worked on or is the highest priority which in practice just means nothing is the priority, and no matter what myself and my team work on always seems to be the wrong thing. It's absolutely devastating to team morale. We never feel like we…

I'm already unfazed at that part and don't care.

What devastated me this week is that I was slogging so hard for the past several months trying to deliver on what I was asked to deliver on, only took 1 week of PTO out of the 4 weeks I have saved up, spent nights and weekends trying to honestly solve multiple high priority yet HARD problems that 500 other engineers in the company couldn't solve, I'm making good progress on a couple of them single-handedly, yet my manager, who just came back from 3 weeks of vacation just gave me a performance review saying I am not meeting the "bar" for my level and need to do more cross-functional work and amplify my "impact". He's going on vacation again next week to watch the eclipse.

Fuck this. I want to travel, I want to enjoy life. I used to chase eclipses, too. I tried my best, all I ever get is "what you are doing is not enough". What the hell IS enough then? I already don't take vacation and don't exercise, I've put on 7kg of weight since I joined, yet you told me THAT is "not enough". Should I stop sleeping and eating?

Change priorities all you want, honestly I really don't care, and I've dealt with customers too, it happens. Just don't tell me I didn't get anything done. Recognize the fact that I tried hard every time you changed your priority, and I only had 2 months out of 8 to work on your latest priority, and calibrate your expectations to 2 months of work, not 8.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#306

Post by galaxyLogic »

Well it's easy to come up with code, not hard at all. But what kind of code? Does it work? And more importantly, can it be maintained and adjusted to evolving requirements?

Coding is easy just like writing is easy. What makes the difference is what you write.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#307

Post by blub »

buran77 wrote: post #291
rockemsockem wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK, a sufficiently complex consumer or enterprise app winds up having big performance problems if people don't know what they're doing w.r.t. the code they write and how they connect systems together with that code. Those performance problems start out not mattering much, first it impacts one seldom-used part of the site, then another, but that chips away at users and can eventually tank the product. That doesn't ev…

> a sufficiently complex consumer or enterprise app winds up having big performance problems if people don't know what they're doing w.r.t. the code they write and how they connect systems together with that code. On those complex systems in particular the problems start long before any code is written. A software engineer can create and understand the specs, requirements, design the system, architectural decisions,…

No they can’t do everything before writing a line of code. The design and requirements feed into the code and vice-versa over and over through the lifecycle of a piece of software.

Some architecture work and design will be done beforehand, but many details will fall into place as the code is being written, thrown away, adapted, etc.

The idea that code is mere transcription - which I see a lot in these AI discussions - is completely false. Code is a form of low-level design and is where the rubber hits the road.

The best requirements, designs, marketing, etc are worth jack if one fucks up the code. The code is the actual product.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#308

Post by agentultra »

The author might be missing the intent of the observation. Maybe they’re misinterpreting it.

What I, and many people who’ve said, “code was never the hard part,” aren’t referring to the skill of an individual. It’s not the hard part of the engineering process of developing software. Programming languages have manuals. Many data structures are well documented. There are frameworks for damn near everything. While the difficulty of producing code varies by the skill of the programmer and the complexity of the problem domain; writing and understanding the code is a tractable and straight-forward problem. I can and have taught many people. People can learn.

What most people are referring to is that the hardest parts of producing software are all the things an organization has to do in the production of it. It’s not writing the code that is the hardest part for an organization. It’s getting everyone to understand the problems, working together, gathering requirements, developing specifications, validating releases, testing, etc. It can often look like herding cats and is probably harder.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#309

Post by mawadev »

nemothekid wrote: post #270

This feels like post-LLM coding romanticization. Before LLMs, people would regularly say stuff like "I could build this in a weekend" under a "Show HN" post. How many times have people said "I could build Twitter in a weekend". I've even found in a post-LLM world, that kind of language has only increased. When you are looking at something that already exists, where all the requirements are defined, when all the edge…

You are putting a lot of words and judgements into the authors mouth.

Why exactly is it acceptable to not just do your role and expect the underlying requirements to be correct and measurable, especially when there are separate roles whose sole purpose is to do exactly that?

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