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Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

politico.com

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Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#301

Post by jgbuddy »

intrasight wrote: post #268
jgbuddy wrote: post #78

The point of open weight models is that this is not possible, companies will be built by taking 'contraband' chinese open weight models and marketing as something from the US

Without a massive amount of post-training, it will be obvious that they are Chinese models with Chinese political ideology. I doubt that there's any business model that would work there.

I don't think the post-training would be that difficult. I ran an experiment on kimi k3 just now:

User: is taiwan part of china?

Kimi: Taiwan's political status is a complex and contested issue. Here's a balanced overview of the different perspectives: People's Republic of China (PRC) position: The P

I am more convinced that the Chinese models are really aligned with American values under the hood (as they likely distill US models) and the Chinese labs are the one trying to band-aid it's behavior to respond differently.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#302

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nixon_why69 wrote: post #291
barbazoo wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a good example you would say?

I think they're referring to occasional fist fights between the Indian and Chinese deployments at the top of the Himalayas where there's a dumb territorial dispute. There were a couple of times decades ago where the forces shot at each other and the governments had to scramble to calm things down and deescalate, so somehow they've reached this gentleman's agreement to have fistfights instead. https://en.wikipedia.org…

> We're talking about this kind of thing balancing out, say, Fallujah or shock and awe over Baghdad

Nonsense. For that comparison you’d look to the invasion and annexation of Tibet. (And it’s not ancient history if it’s currently endorsed and un-apologized for.)

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#304

Post by theredleft »

intrasight wrote: post #268
jgbuddy wrote: post #78

The point of open weight models is that this is not possible, companies will be built by taking 'contraband' chinese open weight models and marketing as something from the US

Without a massive amount of post-training, it will be obvious that they are Chinese models with Chinese political ideology. I doubt that there's any business model that would work there.

do you think that China is some place devoid of business? it's the center of global commerce now. you're gravely mistaken if you think that Chinese models have "Chinese political ideology" baked into them

Grok literally had post work done to make it more right wing and racist.

sheer lunacy

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#305

Post by pera »

WarmWash wrote: post #134
ninjahawk1 wrote: post #34

The U.S. does NOT have copyright protections on the data that AI models were and are trained on, it was mass theft. Now all of a sudden, the Chinese are stealing from the thieves and we’re supposed to care? No one cares, we just want cheaper AI models that are equally as powerful. They’re all thieves regardless.

Training on copyright was ruled to be transformative. Anthropic was just fined for not paying for the pirated books they copied into a training database. Same as anyone else who copied pirated IP onto their hard drive. However, training an AI on copyright has been ruled to be sufficiently transformative and not a violation of IP laws. The same way you can make a gameplay clone of Call of Duty without any issue.

Ruled by whom? The International Court of the Northern District of California?

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#306

Post by theredleft »

jgbuddy wrote: post #301
intrasight wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a massive amount of post-training, it will be obvious that they are Chinese models with Chinese political ideology. I doubt that there's any business model that would work there.

I don't think the post-training would be that difficult. I ran an experiment on kimi k3 just now: User: is taiwan part of china? Kimi: Taiwan's political status is a complex and contested issue. Here's a balanced overview of the different perspectives: People's Republic of China (PRC) position: The P I am more convinced that the Chinese models are really aligned with American values under the hood (as they likely dis…

ask grok about the epstein files. ask gemini about the epstein files. ask them about obama's legacy as a war criminal and the reclassification of civilians as combatants to make drone striking weddings more palatable

unbelievable chauvinism in here

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#307

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

sheeshkebab wrote: post #158
nekusar wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are public libraries thieves? Is Anna's Library thieves? Is Library Genesis thieves? Is Archive.org thieves? Is PirateBay thieves? They all look like public libraries to me. And better access to all human knowledge is a net positive for everyone.

Someone going to public library, copying every book out of it and then selling them as their own are thieves.

No, they've merely infringed copyright. Theft is a well understood concept and it does not pertain to information.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#308

Post by dang »

Tenoke wrote: post #104
npodbielski wrote: post #60

So Y Combinator signed it too? But this is HN, Y combinator website. I think I am missing something because I never read any opinion like 'we should ban Chinese models'.

Y Combinator the company doesnt particularly have to share the opinions of hackernews the public site.

That's true, and often they diverge. But in this case I think the opinions within YC itself and in the HN community at large are more or less the same - we all want open-weight models.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#309

Post by verdverm »

jgbuddy wrote: post #301
intrasight wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a massive amount of post-training, it will be obvious that they are Chinese models with Chinese political ideology. I doubt that there's any business model that would work there.

I don't think the post-training would be that difficult. I ran an experiment on kimi k3 just now: User: is taiwan part of china? Kimi: Taiwan's political status is a complex and contested issue. Here's a balanced overview of the different perspectives: People's Republic of China (PRC) position: The P I am more convinced that the Chinese models are really aligned with American values under the hood (as they likely dis…

How are you accessing K3? If it is through Moonshot's API, then there is very likely guardrails, because it seems like it wanted to answer and was then cutoff.

We are starting to get access to K3 from US providers now, curious if they exhibit the same response pattern?

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#310

Post by dang »

ninjahawk1 wrote: post #34

The U.S. does NOT have copyright protections on the data that AI models were and are trained on, it was mass theft. Now all of a sudden, the Chinese are stealing from the thieves and we’re supposed to care? No one cares, we just want cheaper AI models that are equally as powerful. They’re all thieves regardless.

Ok, but can you please follow the HN guidelines and focus on specific, thoughtful discussion, not generic/indignant tangents? The first is what we're trying for, and the second basically destroys it.

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Ultimately this is more a problem with the upvoting system than the comments themselves, since generic/indignant comments routinely attract lots of upvotes, and then sit on top of the thread, smothering more interesting discussion. But in terms of moderation we can only reply to commenters.

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