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What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

pluralistic.net

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Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#301

Post by ok123456 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #236
atoav wrote: post #169

I grew up during the 90s/2000s and I used the internet, first social media platforms, messengers, etc. – a lot. My parents had no idea of computers, how to use them, how to use the internet, what is out there etc. Yet I am convinced that the way my parents dealt with it is still the gold standard. Their parenting equipped me well to deal with weird, dangerous or otherwise harmful things I encountered. They were the k…

I think the best thing most parents could do is ban the Internet from their own life. I grew up in the 80s and I have watched the evolution of parenting since then. The world is measurably safer today than it was then. Stranger danger is vanishingly rare. What the hell happened? Fear happened. Things like 24 hour cable news accelerated it, and the Internet turbocharged it. We cannot untangle the horrors we are expose…

Stranger danger was always rare. It was a media hype-cycle. Child abductions have always predominantly been by family or other close persons.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#302

Post by codedokode »

There are at least two methods to verify age without disclosing identity:

1) Yubikey-like tokens supporting attestation and sold at places not accessible to minors like liquor stores

2) "parent mode" on desktop and mobile devices - the device would refuse to load any inappropriate sites and install inappropriate apps like Telegram, Omegle or Facebook.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#303

Post by drnick1 »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #93
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you be more specific as to what you're imagining? I don't personally see a way to verify someone's age which doesn't involve either credit card verification, photo id verification, or some sort of facial recognition. If you know enough about someone to verify their age—even to a relatively low degree of accuracy—you probably know enough to pinpoint who they are in general. Heck—in most cases, we can't even tell…

The way identity wallets work: The government issues an eID to your wallet. The ID is signed by the government and linked to the device to prevent transferring the credential. A public/private key-pair is generated by the secure enclave in your phone, the public key along with proof of possession of the private key is included in the request for the government eID. The government signs individual attributes combined…

> A public/private key-pair is generated by the secure enclave in your phone

This is completely unacceptable. In practice, this solution means a locked down device, probably controlled by Google or Apple.

The Internet has existed without identity or age verification for more than 30 years, and there is no reason to change that.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#304

Post by pendenthistory »

john_strinlai wrote: post #2

> "Age verification" means that everyone who does anything online will have to submit to fine-grained tracking and recording of all their online activities. its been said 1000 times here, but: age verification doesn't have to be a nightmare dystopia of 24/7 fine-grained tracking and recording unless you are somehow hoping to achieve 100% success rate (something we have not done with any other law ever). there are sev…

Sweet summer child. This is not about age verification.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#305

Post by codedokode »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #16
john_strinlai wrote: post #2

> "Age verification" means that everyone who does anything online will have to submit to fine-grained tracking and recording of all their online activities. its been said 1000 times here, but: age verification doesn't have to be a nightmare dystopia of 24/7 fine-grained tracking and recording unless you are somehow hoping to achieve 100% success rate (something we have not done with any other law ever). there are sev…

Could you be more specific as to what you're imagining? I don't personally see a way to verify someone's age which doesn't involve either credit card verification, photo id verification, or some sort of facial recognition. If you know enough about someone to verify their age—even to a relatively low degree of accuracy—you probably know enough to pinpoint who they are in general. Heck—in most cases, we can't even tell…

Yubikey tokens support attestation. You can sell Yubikey tokens at places inaccessible to minors, like liquor stores, and having a token proves that one is adult. Another way is implementing "parent mode" when OS allows only installing apps from a government-approved whitelist and access sites from a whitelist.

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#306

Post by pembrook »

atoav wrote: post #169

I grew up during the 90s/2000s and I used the internet, first social media platforms, messengers, etc. – a lot. My parents had no idea of computers, how to use them, how to use the internet, what is out there etc. Yet I am convinced that the way my parents dealt with it is still the gold standard. Their parenting equipped me well to deal with weird, dangerous or otherwise harmful things I encountered. They were the k…

This is the only insightful comment in this entire thread but it will be ignored because people love a good moral panic.

Millennials having kids has turned them into their boomer parents, bringing out the pitchfork for whatever braindead hysteria was featured in CAPITAL LETTERS on the 6 oclock news that day.

The kids are going to be fine. None of the moral panics of previous generations are even talked about anymore, because it's all irrational kneejerk reactions to change ("this new music is different, it's destroying our kids!"). Social media doesn't even exist anymore, its just short form cable TV.

The adults on the other hand...that's the actual group we need to be worried about. They don't adapt like kids do.

The boomers mismanaged the entire developed world into a giant debt spiral and are collapsing every social welfare system their parents generation created.

The real question is: What institutions and assets the boomers created (like the internet) will the the millennials ruin with their poor governance?

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#307

Post by inigyou »

sylos wrote: post #191
inigyou wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also, separately from that, a need to protect kids from growing up into the people in Idiocracy.

Getting children to not grow up into idiots requires intense parental interactions, healthy environments, and the ability to explore and get hurt. Identification isn't even on the list.

[flagged]

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#308

Post by drnick1 »

cogman10 wrote: post #241
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, they don't know. They're going to learn very quickly when they want to use some website and they can't. We agree it doesn't need to be 100% perfect. But it needs to be at least, like, 60% perfect, right? And unless you make it at least a bit hard to bypass, it will stop virtually no one.

Some undoubtedly will. Installing a new browser is already a bit hard for most people. I think you are a little skewed in your thinking being online on HN. You also aren't thinking about age. Certainly 16 and 18 year old probably can get a new browser installed. But a 14 year old? 12 year old? 10 year old? That barrier is a lot higher the younger a kid is.

Lol. I started building computers, installing operating systems and tinkering with Linux between ages 10-12. I also started watching porn not long after that, and guess what, I still became a more or less normal adult. There is absolutely no need to "protect the children."

Re: What we call "age verification" is actually mass surveillance

#310

Post by drnick1 »

mindslight wrote: post #198
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would require browser attestation, wouldn't it? Otherwise kids are just going to download a custom build of Chromium where `window.isUserOver(16)` is always `True`.

No, it only "requires" browser attestation if we taken it as a given that the onus is on tech companies for verifying who they are talking to - ie identity verification that most of these schemes boil down to regardless of how cute they're dressed up. To effectively keep adult content away from kids, it merely requires secure boot and closed app stores, which are already widespread. And they are only required on the…

> To effectively keep adult content away from kids, it merely requires secure boot and closed app stores

This is unacceptable. If I own a computer, I expect to be able to build and run any program, either written by myself or others, without asking anyone for permission.

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