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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

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Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#301

Post by illiac786 »

d_burfoot wrote: post #211

Many commenters seem to be appealing to an almost religious defense of present political borders. That attitude is untenable: there is nothing sacred about national boundaries, they are mere political artifacts like rules, regulations, tax codes, etc. If the people want to change them, they absolutely have the right to do so. https://unifixion.substack.com/p/political-boundaries-are-no...

I think the problem is the irreversible aspect of this. Once they leave they will never join back.

I’d love to see stats on countries merging vs splitting, may sumptuous is 1 to 50 at least.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#302

Post by slopinthebag »

alistairSH wrote: post #300
slopinthebag wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're called "Equalisation payments". Certain provinces pay them, like BC, Alberta, and Ontario, and then other provinces receive them. In 2023, the federal government spent $24.0 billion including an estimated $3.3 billion from Alberta, which has not received equalization payments since 1964/65. From 2007 to 2022, Albertans’ net contribution to federal finances was $244.6 billion, more than five times the net cont…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments This indicates Alberta (and Ontario and BC) don't pay higher tax rates. The equalization payments just come out of the general budget. The US isn't all that much different. Wealthy states pay more per capita because it's an income tax, not a per capita tax. Looks like ~13 states pay more than they get back, with Massachusetts paying relatively more (-$5000/person) a…

Afaik it's not higher tax rates, in fact income taxes in Alberta are lower than other provinces. But OP was referring to equalisation payments, which are considered unfair by many Albertans.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#303

Post by yummypaint »

TheGRS wrote: post #236
d_burfoot wrote: post #211

Many commenters seem to be appealing to an almost religious defense of present political borders. That attitude is untenable: there is nothing sacred about national boundaries, they are mere political artifacts like rules, regulations, tax codes, etc. If the people want to change them, they absolutely have the right to do so. https://unifixion.substack.com/p/political-boundaries-are-no...

Sure, and history deals the cards we're given and so on and so forth. Why don't we have referendums on keeping the US Constitution every year? That would be democratic as hell.

Because the procedure for changing the constitution is in the constitution. That would have to be followed at least once.

https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/full-text

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#304

Post by Marsymars »

tandr wrote: post #166
cwillu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net federal tax by province for 2024: East: ON: 92,392M QC: 43,549M NS: 4,464M NB: 5,167M NL: 2,467M PE: 680M West: BC: 33,037M AB: 29,900M SK: 5,579M MB: 5,745M North: NT: 273M NU: 162M YT: 254M To call the west a “cash cow” is just a bit misleading, even if you grant the separatists British Columbia, which is frankly a laughable notion.

Would you be kind and recalculate this per person in each province? Thank you!

Why? What do you think this will show?

Obviously it will be higher in the west because incomes are higher, but the rates will be the same, which is the more salient point.

You'll see the same thing if you look at any sub-national division with high salaries - e.g. Toronto and Vancouver have similar incomes as Alberta, so pay a similar amount per person in federal taxes.

Ottawa-Gatineau is notably more of a cash cow in terms of federal taxes than Alberta, by the taxes-paid-per-person measure.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#305

Post by cwillu »

tandr wrote: post #166
cwillu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net federal tax by province for 2024: East: ON: 92,392M QC: 43,549M NS: 4,464M NB: 5,167M NL: 2,467M PE: 680M West: BC: 33,037M AB: 29,900M SK: 5,579M MB: 5,745M North: NT: 273M NU: 162M YT: 254M To call the west a “cash cow” is just a bit misleading, even if you grant the separatists British Columbia, which is frankly a laughable notion.

Would you be kind and recalculate this per person in each province? Thank you!

5.7k for Ontario, 5.9k for Alberta.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#306

Post by patcon »

userbinator wrote: post #283
BiraIgnacio wrote: post #229

The referendum is actually about having a referendum first. "Alberta to hold fall referendum on whether to have binding referendum on separating from Canada" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-separation-r...

Classic bureaucracy.

No, it would be a waste to spend countless millions (nevermind the human capital of "attention") on the campaigning, without first validating that a true quorom of people even want to think about this, rather than a very vocal minority. It's a governance equivalent of saying "step up or shut up", and it's not stupid or wasteful

You're too eager to label legit "governance" as bureaucracy imho

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#307

Post by cwillu »

briga wrote: post #124
cwillu wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said “despises”. Your evidence falls wide of the net.

And you have no evidence at all

You're the one making a claim.

I've never experienced this myself despite living here for years, working in oil/resource/agriculture-adjacent sectors most of my life, and spending a few years in Ontario. It is, in my experience, purely CPC/UCP propaganda. I certainly wouldn't have spent january pushing edmontonians out of their parking lots if I despised them lol

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#308

Post by illiac786 »

BiraIgnacio wrote: post #229

The referendum is actually about having a referendum first. "Alberta to hold fall referendum on whether to have binding referendum on separating from Canada" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-separation-r...

That made me laugh actually. What a good way of wasting taxpayers money and make people laugh at the same time.

More seriously: Why?

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#309

Post by cwillu »

Fogest wrote: post #224
cwillu wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile our Prime Minister was raised in Edmonton... No, it's not a thing.

You're being incredibly silly with your arguments. If you talk to anyone in the country outside of Alberta you're very likely to hear a negative tone when talking about them, especially if they are liberal. Our governments have very much fostered a hostile relationship with Alberta and has done very little to address their concerns. Anybody surprised by Alberta wanting out has had their head in the sand. I don't thin…

Bullshit. This is purely CPC and UPC propaganda that doesn't survive contact with reality.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#310

Post by the_gipsy »

qball wrote: post #249
the_gipsy wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the meaning of "people want" is very delicately depending on the geographical area and moment in time.

Yes, and here "Canadians want" is used to say "the people within 100km of the St. Lawrence want". (That's actually part of the problem.) Claimed identity isn't a suicide pact and consent of the governed isn't equally geographically distributed. AB sees, correctly, an inordinate amount of tax per capita go out for the privilege of policies intended to kneecap that region's development. The justifications for those pol…

And tomorrow people in the rich half of AB don't want to subsidize the poorer half, and so on.
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