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How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

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Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#301

Post by mapontosevenths »

Barrin92 wrote: post #252
mapontosevenths wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One heuristic for spotting when you might be wrong is that you hold a very uncommon belief. It COULD be that you are correct and the world is crazy, but its far more likely that you are the one who is missing something. It's always worth stopping to double check when this happens. Perhaps more importantly, if you do happen to be right when everyone else is wrong its important to determine your goals. Is it more impor…

>One heuristic for spotting when you might be wrong is that you hold a very uncommon belief. this is only the case in a 'wisdom of the crowd' world where people hold uncorrelated, authentic, self-formed opinions. If you're in a world of mass opinion and mania where ideas spread virally it ceases to be an indicator. In that environment its not truth that determined popularity of a belief, but how transmittable they ar…

> If you're in a world of mass opinion and mania where ideas spread virally it ceases to be an indicator.

Not really. It continues to be an indicator, just a less reliable one. As I said, it's one heuristic. It increases your probability of being right more than it decreases it, but it isn't an absolute rule.

Fundamentally, science itself relies on this heuristic to some extent. The idea that an experiment be reproducible is essentially the idea that the majority of testers should agree on observed reality. You just have to be careful not to conflate opinion with observed fact, or to treat it as more than a heuristic evaluator.

> Happiness decoupled from truth is nihilism.

Not at all.

You do not need to be correct to be happy, and there is no correlation at all between your ability to correctly understand the world and your capacity (or worthiness) to experience joy or to help others experience it. You are allowed to be wrong and happy, or apathetic and happy, or ignorant and happy, or even nihilistic and happy.

> If that's the goal start doing heroin at ten in the morning and retreat into the VR world of your choice.

There's more than one type of happiness. The kind you describe is hedonic. The other type is referred to as Eudamonic, and it comes from connection, service, and a sense of purpose.

You'll never get to experience the second type if other people don't want to be around you because you've decided that your own narrow perspective is the One True Perspective (TM).

Don't get me wrong, I reject post-modernity and the horrifying idea that there is no objective truth. I just also reject the idea that any of us are valid arbiters of that truth, or that we must know the truth before being allowed to experience happiness.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#302

Post by justonceokay »

hoppp wrote: post #175
justonceokay wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I.e. the things that make people become friends and feel safe around each other. As a fellow autistic person we should not be avoiding small talk, we should be learning how to better connect with those around us since we need more time and work to do so. It’s easy to use a diagnosis as an excuse not to connect. But it’s a lame excuse. It is much more interesting to understand what tools we need to gain to connect wit…

I am semi-verbal. I can't talk most of the time, that does stop me from having a conversation yes. Processing Sensory information takes priority over social circuits in my brain, physically. So I am unapologetically autistic and no I don't have to break my brain to try to fit in. If people find my disabilities upsetting thats stereotype ableism and yes it happens often

I never said you had to be good at talking. But you can be bad at talking and also not anxious, which it sounds like you are.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#303

Post by dalmo3 »

bsoles wrote: post #198
justonceokay wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If any one single interaction makes you have such a response, that might be a reason to see someone. I wish for everyone to be able to move through the social world with grace and ease. Put less kindly: there’s nothing so special about you that being yourself around a new person should cause such a panic. Even if they take an instant dislike to you, that should be something you can take in stride

My favorite Jane Austen quote on this subject: Perhaps,' said Darcy, 'I should have judged better, had I sought an introduction, but I am ill qualified to recommend myself to strangers.' 'Shall we ask your cousin the reason of this?' said Elizabeth, still addressing Colonel Fitzwilliam. 'Shall we ask him why a man of sense and education, and who has lived in the world, is ill qualified to recommend himself to strange…

That's a poor analogy because practicing an instrument is a single-player game.

Unless you mean you can practice socialisation at the mirror, or that you're willing to practice scales or solfege in public.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#304

Post by mattmanser »

CGMthrowaway wrote: post #268
poemxo wrote: post #194

I am guessing the author is either criticizing people who are anti-social (in the pop culture definition) or believes he was before and after some thinking arrived at the conclusion that antisociety was not the way. But I don't feel it describes my internal motivations, so I've translated them to my behaviors: - if someone is confusing or upsetting you, assume it is your fault - interpret others' actions in the conte…

Strangely I would bucket about half of these in Good or at least Often Useful behaviors. Good: - if someone is confusing or upsetting you, assume it is your fault (personal accountability) - interpret others' actions in the context of your fears (at least having awareness of your fears is step one, step two is reacting healthily) - assume your assumptions are wrong and that you shouldn't even bother (just delete the…

The motivation behind what you've classified 'good' is bad, you've just twisted the symptoms to appear good, while the underlying motivation and root cause is bad.

Unfortunately the parent is suffering from a complete lack of self confidence, and even telling them to go to a therapist won't help as they never will.

Seen it IRL, even if they book an appointment, they'll convince themselves there's some good reason not to go. The two people I've met with it both somehow convinced themselves that therapy didn't work without ever trying it. To the point of lecturing me, who has been to therapy and found it helped immensely, at how useless it is.

It really seems to be a nefarious affliction.

Reading that list above is like watching a car crash in slow motion. You desperately want to help them, they could have so much of a better life if they just believed in themselves even a little bit, but they won't listen to you.

One of my friends I once asked 'Do you want me to push you any morez or is it better if we just talk about other things?'. They dejectedly admitted that they found being pushed depressing and preferred if we didn't talk about it any more.

One of the funniest, insightful people I know, with a great talent, is working a warehouse job and we meet and talk and have a great time but we now talk about anything but his failure to launch.

Ditto for a CERN physicist that now is a part-time tutor for high schoolers living at home with his parents.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#305

Post by justonceokay »

doright wrote: post #261
justonceokay wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can blame million years of evolution for your bad life or you can change it right now living in the present moment. It’s fine if you don’t do it right now because later at a future present moment you can still make the choice to be happy. It might take some work but it will never be because of something that happened in the past. It will be something that you do right now. There are no exceptions or escape hatche…

That approach doesn't work for everyone. Everything you say could be correct, but if the person thinks their feelings are not being listened to, there is a chance they still won't take your advice. One of my therapists said it was normal in her circle for people not to get onto someone's case if they're mentally unwell and have chores piling up, because it makes sense they don't have as much effort to give to all asp…

That’s all excuses. I’m not saying it’s right to bully someone who’s in the depths of depression. But the depression isn’t gonna fix itself and it certainly won’t fix itself because of something that happened in the past

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#306

Post by justonceokay »

svnt wrote: post #257
justonceokay wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can blame million years of evolution for your bad life or you can change it right now living in the present moment. It’s fine if you don’t do it right now because later at a future present moment you can still make the choice to be happy. It might take some work but it will never be because of something that happened in the past. It will be something that you do right now. There are no exceptions or escape hatche…

Yeah I don’t disagree, but your approach comes off as uncaring and arrogant.

It’s not my job to care about yourself. It’s your job you care about yourself

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#307

Post by zoogeny »

syntheticnature wrote: post #271
scubbo wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - if you must ask questions, convince yourself you must not, just figure it out instead God, this one hurts. In the first couple months at my new role (which I intentionally chose to be one that would stretch and challenge me as I'm looking for some professional growth), a senior member of my team expressed the view that he'd rather someone spend three days researching than ask him a thirty-second question. When I…

3 days? Wow. Can't say I think much of this senior member of your team, who seems to be the anti-social one here. I'm sure it breaks flow for them, but a big part of being senior is amplifying the best in those less so, and helping them improve. 3 minutes, 30 minutes, sure, I've discovered a lot of junior folks would figure things out on their own when I couldn't get back to them immediately, and tended to add some d…

I would argue it depends on the context. Of course, gaining enough experience on which contexts are worth persevering for which duration is it's own thing.

The rubric I give to juniors is a bit more simple: if you get stuck, consider alternatives that you haven't tried out. Alternatives are of a few types including: relevant evidence/facts you can gather that you haven't yet gathered, and attempts you haven't tried yet. As long as you have alternatives keep trying them (gather evidence, make attempts). Once you run out of alternatives then seek help (avoid spinning wheels).

This way when a junior comes to me I can ask them to list the alternatives they have already tried. If they haven't tried obvious alternatives (gathered facts and reasonable attempts) I send them back. If they've tried all the alternatives I can think of then I get involved.

I'll note that this tends to work when contact between team members is relatively frequent (e.g. once a day) so I can get a sense of how long the junior has been working on a task to avoid rabbit-holing.

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#308

Post by cindyllm »

justonceokay wrote: post #306
svnt wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don’t disagree, but your approach comes off as uncaring and arrogant.

It’s not my job to care about yourself. It’s your job you care about yourself

[dead]

Re: How to be anti-social – a guide to incoherent and isolating social experiences

#309

Post by zoogeny »

poemxo wrote: post #194

I am guessing the author is either criticizing people who are anti-social (in the pop culture definition) or believes he was before and after some thinking arrived at the conclusion that antisociety was not the way. But I don't feel it describes my internal motivations, so I've translated them to my behaviors: - if someone is confusing or upsetting you, assume it is your fault - interpret others' actions in the conte…

As others have noted, this is avoidant behavior, not anti-social.

Worth taking a look at the Wikipedia for Attachment styles [1]. The two types are Dismissive-Avoidant and Fearful-Avoidant. Either can be superficially mistaken for anti-social, although Dismissive-avoidant tends to present a bit closer to anti-social.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults

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