Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023) • Hacker News Board

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#301

Post by lq9AJ8yrfs » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 1:56 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #131

lamasery wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had enough insight into enough school districts that I'm confident lots of them are hotbeds of corruption. Mostly at the upper admin level (superintendents and such). Kickbacks for contracts, hiring absurd numbers of assistants and secretaries to the point that one wonders what work remains for the top dogs, creating do-nothing decently-paid positions for people they're having affairs with. That kind of thing.

There hasn't been enough said about the corruption of public life in the US. (And elsewhere.) It used to be this kind of thing was - maybe not exceptional, but certainly not expected. Now it's common but underreported. So there's a kind of dream world where "education" and "health" are still considered official public goals. But the reality is that government procurement is mostly grift and corruption. There's been a…

It happens in the private sector too. I was involved in procurement at a megacorp for several years.

At one point one of my colleagues asked for assistance in getting an order of 500 iphones approved. As "spares".

Fortunately the corp had a policy that phone purchases needed to have a named individual declared.

I declined politely to assist.

It was common to see certain mid level execs churning through 2x - 5x the equipment of IC's (who would never get out-of-lifecycle approvals anyeay) and some quid pro quo stuff. As a fraction of their total comp it was modest ultimately, and for this reason my boss advised me to keep my mouth shut.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#302

Post by rahimnathwani » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 2:19 PM UTC

nekusar wrote: post #300

rahimnathwani wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But the actual teachers arent seeing it." There are multiple teachers in my local school district whose total compensation is well over $200k: https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=school-... And, no, this isn't mainly overtime pay. So they're getting paid this much even though they work only 80% as many days as people with normal jobs. If you multiply the compensation numbers by 100/80 to make them c…

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/teacher-pay... Cherrypicking the most expensive area in the country does not defend your claim. Sure, the most expensive locale in the country has a few up there, but even CA's average is 101K. Most of the Midwest is 55-65k. And frankly, given the responsibility, is shit pay.

Providing data from the exact place where I live is not 'cherrypicking'.

You think 60k in the midwest isn't much, but consider:

- you're talking about salary; teachers' total comp in most places is 25% higher than salary (due to retirement benefits)

- teachers only work 80% as much as regular folk; so you need to add 25% to make it comparable

- in most places, the performance bar for getting and keeping a teaching job is much lower than for other 'professional' jobs

60 × 1.25 × 1.25 ~= 94

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#303

Post by QuarterReptile » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 2:29 PM UTC

phil21 wrote: post #199

JPKab wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student/teacher ratios have gone down, not up over the last few decades. This isn't a lack of funding. Teachers are put in an impossible position with students who come from homes where the parents don't do their proper jobs. It's never been easier to be a neglectful parent. Your child will be entertained non-stop by an iPad and a video game system. They won't get bored and bother you. You can send them to their room…

The single variable that actually matters when it comes to school - and nothing else matters until this one is fulfilled: The quality of the peers who make up the student body. Or put another way: The quality and involvement of the average parent. A school can absorb an extremely small minority of "problematic" students if the rest of the student body is stellar, but that's about it. There is not a single thing any p…

The school system is going to crash out in the US. The public school teachers will readily share symptoms ("enrollment going down", "2X the IEPs of 3 years ago", "non-verbal ipad kids", "kids only sleeping 4 hours a night because of ipads", etc.). As everyone with means or time escapes, the system increasingly distills problems and legitimate special-needs cases while no longer spreading them out among cooperative kids, and teachers will continue to burn out in such a thankless environment.

At varying times in various places, public school is or will become just like riding the bus: technically a viable option for a needed service, if you have no other choice and are ready to suffer in a place that tolerates all manner of dysfunction.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#304

Post by nekusar » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 2:29 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #302

nekusar wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/teacher-pay... Cherrypicking the most expensive area in the country does not defend your claim. Sure, the most expensive locale in the country has a few up there, but even CA's average is 101K. Most of the Midwest is 55-65k. And frankly, given the responsibility, is shit pay.

Providing data from the exact place where I live is not 'cherrypicking'. You think 60k in the midwest isn't much, but consider: - you're talking about salary; teachers' total comp in most places is 25% higher than salary (due to retirement benefits) - teachers only work 80% as much as regular folk; so you need to add 25% to make it comparable - in most places, the performance bar for getting and keeping a teaching jo…

Damn straight it is.

Or better yet, its a classical case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier calculations.

Im also going to go on a real limb here and say that since the median for CA is 101k, that $207,869.26 is probably outside of 3 SD's.

Again, you chose the most expensive state and most expensive city in the country. And yeah, Im calling you on that. Its not indicative for most of us, other than you bay area folks.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#305

Post by QuarterReptile » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 2:32 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #246

mothballed wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also becoming increasingly more likely to enter into college with lower relative and absolute high school performance. Perhaps some wonder why they should try so hard in HS, when most anyone that graduates can get into college, and no employer is asking a college grad what their high school grades and scores were. There was a time back in the 60s or 70s or earlier when anyone that graduated HS could get a decent…

In an era of declining birth rates and thus fewer students graduating from high school, of course the third-tier private colleges are going to lower their admission standards in order to survive. In the long run this won't work because employers will eventually figure out that degrees from those colleges are worthless. But they'll keep up their grifting for a while, and leave a lot of mediocre students stuck with hug…

For a long time, college education was the easiest way to legally discriminate against applicants. The signal is weakening and the expense of exhibiting the signal has skyrocketed.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#306

Post by QuarterReptile » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 2:38 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #280

boringg wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math, reading and writing are all accomplished by repetition and building muscle memory. The adults in the room saying you don't need that in order to learn are doing a disservice to the next generation. There is also a lot of busy work but again work and being able to do work, sustain focus requires the development of that skill and muscle. Especially in this day and age where everyone is vying for your attention.

Nah, only the dullards need a lot of repetition. I've seen brighter kids pick those subjects up extremely quickly.

Your "brighter kids" probably did their reps already, when you weren't watching. My 4 year old likes to quiz me on addition and subtraction at the dinner table -- two years from now, in some school, it'll look like he 'just gets it', which he will, but only because he already did his reps.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#307

Post by WalterBright » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 2:39 PM UTC

yoyohello13 wrote: post #250

rendang wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you agree that administrators in public ed are doing a poor job managing the resources allocated to them, do you support school choice efforts that will allow more competition from charter/private schools that have incentives to spend more wisely?

Why would private schools be incentivized to spend more wisely? Why would paying a CEO obscene amounts of money to lobby for public funds be better than fixing public schools?

Because wise spending results in making more money.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#308

Post by Teever » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 4:00 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #279

Teever wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning cursive serves a dual purpose which is to develop fine motor skills. https://macleans.ca/society/life/why-your-teenager-cant-use-...

So does robotics, wood shop, metal shop, pottery, etc. This interest that some people have in forcing students to learn cursive seems so bizarre and anachronistic.

You could make the same argument about teaching children to sing and play instruments in music class given that we now have AI generated music. You could also make the same argument about teaching kids how to draw or paint given that we now have cameras and 3d rendering.

Would you agree with that argument? Why or why not?

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#309

Post by empath75 » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 4:07 PM UTC

larkost wrote: post #232

empath75 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife is on a school board in a large district that is trying to cut spending. The problem is not really how much money they have and giving them more money doesn't help. The problem at least in our state is: Public schools are subsidizing charter schools Public schools have many legal requirements to provide services that charter schools don't have to deal with. Charter schools also have a lot of freedom to refuse…

Public schools are not subsidizing charter schools. Rather per-student money travels with those kids to the school they are actually attending. So since the kids don't go to those schools, neither does the money. I don't know what state you are in, and there are a number of them where the charter systems are absolute messes and have become fraud paradises (looking at you Florida), but other states things are much bet…

> Public schools are not subsidizing charter schools.

That is a blanket statement that is not true everywhere. There is, yes the money going with the student, but there is also money from the general funds that goes to subsidize various aspects of running charter schools.

> I don't know what state you are in, and there are a number of them where the charter systems are absolute messes and have become fraud paradises (looking at you Florida)

you guessed the one :)

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#310

Post by empath75 » Thu, Apr 23, 2026, 4:18 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #248

empath75 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife is on a school board in a large district that is trying to cut spending. The problem is not really how much money they have and giving them more money doesn't help. The problem at least in our state is: Public schools are subsidizing charter schools Public schools have many legal requirements to provide services that charter schools don't have to deal with. Charter schools also have a lot of freedom to refuse…

I don't understand your comment. Charter schools are public schools. Are you confusing charter schools with private schools? Charter schools generally can't pick and choose students the way private schools do.

They don't do it the way that private schools do, but they do have a variety of mechanisms for weeding out undesirable students, which they use, even though they are not legal. There is almost no enforcement for any of it.