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Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

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Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#301

Post by vanderZwan »

internet_points wrote: post #276
vanderZwan wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is one of those things where Europe and the US are very different, culturally speaking - I've lived in the Netherlands, Germany and now Sweden, and the amount of painkillers used and prescribed here seems much lower than what Americans tell me is normal in the US. Pain a warning signal from the body. It's something one should listen to, not just try to ignore and overrule. If I sprain my ankle it onl…

> home-made oral rehydration solution water? EDIT: I see it's a thing. Salt, water and sugar.

Apologies, I could have clarified that (then again my comment already was a wall of text).

The body does not absorb water passively but actively, and it's been known for a very long time that water with a bit of salt and sugar is absorbed faster. This has been crucial in reducing (especially child) mortality due to acute fluid loss from diarrhea due to, say, cholera[0]. (I personally find amazing that Robert K. Crane figured out the mechanism behind it in the sixties already[1])

Now, "proper" ORS, according to the WHO, is the following:

    Sodium chloride               2.6 gr/l
    Glucose, anhydrous           13.5 gr/l
    Potassium chloride            1.5 gr/l
    Trisodium citrate, dihydrate  2.9 gr/l
However, that is in the context of oral rehydration therapy:

glucose facilitates the absorption of sodium (and hence water) on a 1:1 molar basis in the small intestine; sodium and potassium are needed to replace the body losses of these essential ions during diarrhoea (and vomiting); citrate corrects the acidosis that occurs as a result of diarrhoea and dehydration.

So you can usually get away with not having the potassium and trisodium if the reason for dehydration is neither diarrhoea or vomiting.

This translates to a simple home recipe of:

    1 liter (or 4.25 cups) of water
    1/2 a teaspoon of salt (3 gr)
    2 table spoons of sugar (30 gr) OR 1 table spoon of glucose (15 gr)
The reason for doubling the amount of sugar is that the active absorption of water relies on glucose, while regular sugar is made out of sucrose. Sucrose breaks down into equal parts fructose and glucose (both have identical chemical formulas but a different arrangement of the atoms).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_rehydration_therapy

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-glucose_transport_prote...

[2] https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/WHO-FCH-CAH-06.1 page 12 of the linked on that page (labeled as page 3)

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#302

Post by wincy »

huhkerrf wrote: post #267
vanderZwan wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is one of those things where Europe and the US are very different, culturally speaking - I've lived in the Netherlands, Germany and now Sweden, and the amount of painkillers used and prescribed here seems much lower than what Americans tell me is normal in the US. Pain a warning signal from the body. It's something one should listen to, not just try to ignore and overrule. If I sprain my ankle it onl…

Since we're talking about acetaminophen and ibuprofen, in France you're liable to end up with a medicine cabinet full of acetaminophen, because almost anytime you go to the doctor with any type of pain, they add it to the prescription.

Interesting, in the US they often do that too but I’ve personally never filled it because insurance doesn’t cover over the counter medications. So I’d have to pay cash for it.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#303

Post by ZoomZoomZoom »

Considering its ubiquitous and regular consumption in general population, doesn't alcohol shift the balance in favour of ibuprofen?

Also, possible blood clotting or stomach issues sound scary, but Aspirin has similar (opposite) issues. Pharmacists regularly push its combinations with Acetominophen (which has, of course, synergetic bonuses, but is not the reason) under multitude of brands with a hefty premium when people ask for either one. So in many situations you need to consider the added risks from Aspirin too.

Ideally, I'd like to have an optimized strategies of using all three of the aforementioned substances for common situations. Like, is rotating ibuprofen/acetominophen during the day safer than consuming just one?

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#304

Post by kryogen1c »

vanderZwan wrote: post #245
magicalhippo wrote: post #110

> But if acetaminophen is safer, then why don’t official sources tell you that? Guess it depends on country. Here in Norway official sources[1][2] do say acetaminophen (paracetamol here) should be the default for treating fever and pain in kids, adults, pregnant women and elderly, and have for some time. Ibuprofen they say should be used with caution. [1]: https://www.dmp.no/nyheter/behov-for-smertestillende-slik-ve.…

I feel like this is one of those things where Europe and the US are very different, culturally speaking - I've lived in the Netherlands, Germany and now Sweden, and the amount of painkillers used and prescribed here seems much lower than what Americans tell me is normal in the US. Pain a warning signal from the body. It's something one should listen to, not just try to ignore and overrule. If I sprain my ankle it onl…

>Pain a warning signal from the body

Hard agree, same with fevers. Heat helps kill many diseases, dont blunt your body's defenses.

There are exceptions to both rules, but many people forget which part is the exception and which part is the rule.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#306

Post by vanderZwan »

brazzy wrote: post #288
vanderZwan wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is one of those things where Europe and the US are very different, culturally speaking - I've lived in the Netherlands, Germany and now Sweden, and the amount of painkillers used and prescribed here seems much lower than what Americans tell me is normal in the US. Pain a warning signal from the body. It's something one should listen to, not just try to ignore and overrule. If I sprain my ankle it onl…

> Pain a warning signal from the body. It's something one should listen to, not just try to ignore and overrule. If I sprain my ankle it only hurts when I lean on it. Because it's healing. So I don't. Why would headaches or other "inconvenient" pains be different? Pain is also suffering, and there is no virtue in suffering needlessly. Even more importantly, there's also chronic pain, which can severely affect quality…

None of this is in disagreement with my argument and comes across as actively ignoring the part where I explain that I am not advocating to "walk it off".

The discussion started in the context of taking painkillers regularly for things like "inconvenient head-aches" without pausing to investigate what causes those headaches. It should be clear from the context that I am not talking about something like people struggling with migraines. I know they try to figure out not to have them in the first place, and if they do have them deserve all the pain relief they can get. I've had migraines myself growing up.

Nobody is saying that people who suffer from chronic pain shouldn't have a relief from their suffering. But as another comment pointed out: the US seems to have a big issue with untreated conditions in general than other countries.Not in the sense of not treating the pain, but in the sense of not treating the conditions leading to pain. You don't even have paid sick leave apparently. Tackle issues like that and there will be fewer chronic pain sufferers to begin with.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#307

Post by criddell »

socalgal2 wrote: post #214
magicalhippo wrote: post #110

> But if acetaminophen is safer, then why don’t official sources tell you that? Guess it depends on country. Here in Norway official sources[1][2] do say acetaminophen (paracetamol here) should be the default for treating fever and pain in kids, adults, pregnant women and elderly, and have for some time. Ibuprofen they say should be used with caution. [1]: https://www.dmp.no/nyheter/behov-for-smertestillende-slik-ve.…

Here in my body, it tells me acetaminophen does absolutely nothing for pain where as ibuprofen does. I wouldn't take ibuprofen for fever

This might sound like woo, but sometimes I'll find a quiet place and just sit there and focus on the pain. I try to really understand the sensation that's being registered as pain by trying to notice all the properties of it (is it throbbing, burning, etc...).

Occasionally I'll find that the more I try to identify specific features of the sensation, the harder it gets to do so and the pain sensation fades away.

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#309

Post by bonsai_spool »

imtringued wrote: post #185
bonsai_spool wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Good for fever"? Only ignorant consumers would attempt to counteract the body's very own defenses against infection and disease. Yes, ignorant consumers and physicians across the world. You can't just 'vibe medicine' or 'vibe biology' - please don't comment if you don't know what you're talking about.

Someone with a basic understanding of evolution and biology understands that evolution will take any free lunch it can get. The vast majority of the time medicine can only ever help with (acute) symptoms and rarely the underlying cause unless it is something like vaccines or antibiotics. Medicine has side effects because if there was a free lunch to be obtained from medicine, the human body would have synthesized the…

I am forever astounded by the self-satisfaction of programmers as they talk about domains unfamiliar to them.

Just imagine someone trying to lecture a network engineer about how really async bugs should really never be different than bugs you see single-threaded if you use a semaphore. I mean, that's why we have semaphores!

Anyway, the temperatures attained during fevers are at best bacteriostatic (read not helpful in actually treating an infection that would lead you to seek medical care). If you've got evidence-based arguments, happy to counter them. Just please don't evoke 'evolution' to explain your bias-du-jour.

Evolution didn't create the personal computer or build a skyscraper. We're firmly in uncharted territory wrt things our bodies were evolved to deal with. As a great example, human temperature has been going down over time—evolution tells us that must mean we're all more susceptible to getting sick!!! https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/01/human-body-te...

Re: Acetaminophen vs. ibuprofen

#310

Post by nbaugh1 »

vanderZwan wrote: post #245
magicalhippo wrote: post #110

> But if acetaminophen is safer, then why don’t official sources tell you that? Guess it depends on country. Here in Norway official sources[1][2] do say acetaminophen (paracetamol here) should be the default for treating fever and pain in kids, adults, pregnant women and elderly, and have for some time. Ibuprofen they say should be used with caution. [1]: https://www.dmp.no/nyheter/behov-for-smertestillende-slik-ve.…

I feel like this is one of those things where Europe and the US are very different, culturally speaking - I've lived in the Netherlands, Germany and now Sweden, and the amount of painkillers used and prescribed here seems much lower than what Americans tell me is normal in the US. Pain a warning signal from the body. It's something one should listen to, not just try to ignore and overrule. If I sprain my ankle it onl…

Well for one thing, in America, you gotta get back to work.

Work a manual labor job or one where you're on your feet all day and sprained your ankle? Would you rather miss a week of pay (or worse lose your job) or take some pain killers and work through it?

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