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Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

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Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems obvious to me - it's the combination of two ideas: 1. When competing for resources, killing your neighbour frees up resources, which you can take. Most species of animal and even plants do this to some extent. 2. By collaborating in a group, you can achieve more than individuals acting alone. This is the idea behind teams, companies, countries, etc. Combine the two ideas, and you get war.

Yes, but war is worse for all parties generally. Lions murdering prey to eat is a stable equilibrium. Primates fighting each other is not. Murdering for acquisition of a resource is short term advantage. We are strongly, strongly evolutionary oriented away from 'murder' - it's the original sin. It's not something we even argue over. Murder = Bad. No disagreement across cultures. Murder = social cheating. No disagreem…

But we don't generally define war as murder.

War is termed throughout the bile as being just and necessary.

Philosophically speaking, we define murder as being done for personal selfish reasons; i.e greed, jealously, hatred/anger

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#302
post #6

Here is the paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adz4944 - it's interesting. I noticed there was a respiratory epidemic that killed 25 chimps naturally quickly, one would imagine that would have quite a societal destabilizing impact?

Makes me wonder if a respirator epidemic that killed people could also have a destabilizing impact on human society. I guess we may never know.

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#303
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good comment! But this left me thinking: > Thus a fight to death may be chosen, because the bigger team has good chances to win the fight. So chimpanzees start wars for the same reason why Russia attacks Ukraine or USA attacks Iran, those who have more weapons and more money believe that they can win the war, so they start it. In the two Chimpanzee "wars" discussed in Wikipedia (Ngogo and Gombe) it was the smaller gr…

Smaller groups do not start aggression simultaneously against the entirety of a bigger group. They seize the opportunity when a smaller group than themselves is separated from the remainder of the big group, and then they overpower the smaller group. Then they repeat this until they eliminate the bigger group. My point was that animals understand very well the advantages of belonging to the bigger group at the moment…

I don't disagree with anything you're saying, mind you! I'm just curious that in the two Chimp cases at the forefront of this conversation, the smaller group started the war. Yes, they of course attacked when they could find isolated targets, but still it seems more "planned" than simply chance and opportunistic attacks (as much as it makes sense to state Chimps planned this, of course).

As a comparison, and changing species, in the also mentioned Mapogo lion coalition (a similar "war" with lots of casualties), the attackers had the numbers, motive and power advantage: six "disenfranchised" male lions, healthy and powerful and experienced with tackling big game such as buffalo, which gave them an advantage when killing other lions (and yet they still chose to isolate victims first, because as you said, animals understand the principle of strength in numbers).

I'm not disagreeing with you on anything, just musing.

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#304
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no for sure its not. its giving birth or rather - conception. Psalm 51:5 — "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

This is a pretty terrible misrepresentation of original sin. I see you managed to copy it straight out of the Wikipedia page and completely ignore the sentence before it: > In Christian theology, original sin is the condition of sinfulness that all humans share, which they inherit from the the Fall of Adam and Eve. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

what does it mean a condition of sinfulness, the tendency?

like, if you ask a theosophist, which a I did the other day, he claimed it is not about sexuality or human nature at all. It is the sin of attempting to create a reality without God.

so, go figure.

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#305
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are strongly, strongly evolutionary oriented away from 'murder' - it's the original sin Very strong statement given the massive killing of kettle and poultry per second. Also given all the wars including those currently raging - I think is rather untrue. Besides the killing a lion does is not over resources, it’s the resource itself.

Kettle? Cattle?

Cattle of course. But not an LLM Text .) which is good

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would caution against the use of "murder" so loosely. Lions don't murder their prey. They kill their prey. Murder occurs when one entity with personhood intentional kills another entity with personhood, where personhood is rooted in the ability to comprehend reality (intellect) and the ability to make free choices among comprehended alternatives (free choice). "Murder" thus has a moral dimension that mere killing d…

Why do you think that we can define personhood without much understanding of the interior life of anything other than humans? Why do you think personhood is even required for murder? Does your pet have enough of whatever makes personhood important to qualify? How about the source of your blt?

> Why do you think that we can define personhood without much understanding of the interior life of anything other than humans?

Because the "interior life" is demonstrated by observable behavior. It is nonsensical to speak of animals with a "secret rationality" that exists apart form their behavior. This would be a dualistic position that posits that these animals are two things, not one: one that is rational, the other irrational in expression. This doesn't satisfy the demands of parsimony. In fact, it isn't even coherent.

The hallmark of rationality is language, and I mean language in the full sense, not merely signaling or expression of emotional state. The descriptive and argumentative functions are what are characteristic of rationality.

> Why do you think personhood is even required for murder?

Because, as I wrote, personhood is composed of rationality - the ability to comprehend reality - and the ability to make decisions freely among rationally comprehended alternatives. If you can't understand reality, then it is nonsensical to speak of having the ability to choose freely - that's why contracts signed by mentally incompetent people are void, because rational comprehension was a missing element and thus free consent. Without the ability to choose freely, we have no culpability for our actions. We had no choice in the matter! So, a non-person can only kill, but never murder.

> Does your pet have enough of whatever makes personhood important to qualify? [etc, etc]

I don't understand what your getting at. My pet is not a person, because my pet does not rationally comprehend reality. Comprehension is not mere sensation. Animals absolutely perceive the world. They have emotions. But rational comprehension is more than sense perception and brute imagination. It is abstraction, which is to say, the formation of intensional signs - universal concepts - like "human" and "mortal" from the sense experience of particular instances which allows me to form propositions like "every human is mortal" and from there inferences like "every human is mortal / Socrates is a human / therefore, Socrates is mortal".

No other animal that we know of demonstrates these capacities, and therefore, no other animal is personal.

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that we can define personhood without much understanding of the interior life of anything other than humans? Why do you think personhood is even required for murder? Does your pet have enough of whatever makes personhood important to qualify? How about the source of your blt?

> Why do you think that we can define personhood without much understanding of the interior life of anything other than humans? Because the "interior life" is demonstrated by observable behavior. It is nonsensical to speak of animals with a "secret rationality" that exists apart form their behavior. This would be a dualistic position that posits that these animals are two things, not one: one that is rational, the ot…

If you examine the interior life of a human and its behavior you will find a LOT of complexity that doesn't appear in their behavior and if you tries to run a society simulator without modeling any part of that interior life it would probably be mostly wrong because that interior life matters.

Your position that you know to what degree the interior life of the animal is simple to the point of being able to understand them fully whilst modeling none of that implies that you don't understand them or the problem.

Re: Chimpanzees in Uganda locked in eight-year 'civil war', say researchers

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And we honor our veterans, and for a good reason. (Without them, we would be captured/killed by other veterans, and honor them anyway). Modern civilizational culture is a thin patina on top of our primal behavior. This is too cynical a take. "Tribal" warfare (what, Africa, North America?) seems to not be anything compared to civilizational war machines. Evidence shows it instead is two groups shooting arrows at eac…

Evidence doesn't support your conclusion. Try reading something from Steven Pinker on this topic. Your chance of dying violently in such tribal societies is easily 10x (or more) higher than in modern society.

The psycholinguist? He's written about it? I mean ok I'll go check it out. In return I recommend some David Graeber.
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