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The People's Bailout

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Re: The People's Bailout

#301
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... universal health care then :P An organization that receives all your medical bills, keeps you out of debt/bankruptcy, and charges you an amount that it determines would not cause undue hardship? Like insurance, except everyone qualifies! Slight side note: this whole discussion is somewhat depressing, but I've come to expect this from HN lately. This whole thread is divided into two rough parts: people addressin…

So I'm clucking derisively. And the nice ad hominem touches about sexism, racism, privilege etc. This isn't LN, it's HN. Where both the methods and the motives can be discussed. My opinion is that OWS is aiming more for a political statement with this program as opposed to helping people. They may believe that this political statement will do more to help people than just acting as a charity; I'm not ascribing cynica…

I apologize - my post was unclear. It wasn't my intention to label you as "clucking derisively" - that was more of a footnote re: the rest of this thread, and other users whose posts are as ignorant as they are judgmental.

Once again - my post was written poorly, please separate the two halves, the latter of which was not in any way intended to be aimed at you.

Specifically regarding your medical history - the difference between a universal health care system and charity in this case seems like luck. You were fortunate that in your hour of need someone extended their hand to pull you up - universal health care takes the guesswork out of this. The hand is available to everyone.

I am unconvinced that relying on charities is an acceptable alternative to government assistance in areas such as medicine and poverty. The stakes are far too high for people to receive help via dice roll.

Re: The People's Bailout

#302
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this raise social capital? It's not helping the original debtor, and in fact, is increasing the demand for non-performing debt? Collection agencies will LOVE this program, since they can now actually make some money off of non-performing debt. If anything, this will result in collection agencies increasing their harassment of delinquent accounts.

Because it's a signal to all these debtors that there's a significant segment of the population that doesn't want to play by the old rules. It shows that they can count on their fellow citizens to help them out when they are down on their luck, the very definition of social capital.

Alright... lets actually entertain this idealism for a second. Let's give it a good honest shot and see how well this could work out, even in the most favorable conditions.

Lets say 700 people go this event because the capacity of the venue is a maximum of 700. Let's also say they all donated $50 bucks. Let's be real, most people will only pay $25 each because they're they're psuedo-anarchostic punks who just want to see the bands they love for as cheap as they can. But hey, maybe a few people felt the need to go big on this one. So, let's say 700 people donated an average of $50 each.

That's $35,000 raised from the event and if no artists get paid, if the venue doesn't take a chunk, if the promoter doesn't take a chunk, if the flyers were printed for free, if security doesn't get paid, etc. then that's $35,000 that can be used to buy $700,000 in purchased debt. It's worth noting that in the real world, even Non-Profits have to pay to use a venue, security, promoters, etc. Something with a capacity of 700 in NYC is probably a few thousand at least, based on prices over here on the west coast in LA and San Diego. But hey... let's just be generous since thats the spirit of the whole thing anyway. Let's say they get all $35,000 without a single expense. Not even a penny.

Now lets look at some normal unpaid debt that this will probably go to. The average public college student pays $30,000 over 4 years, so lets say a few kids racked up $30,000 in debt each. Usually college kids also take out loans for textbooks, sneak in a little for groceries & supplies, but again... Let's do the super generous thing and say it's only $30,000 and not a penny more. Keep in mind we're not even counting interest! That's super generous!

$700,000 in purchased debt, at $30,000 for 4 years of school = 23 kids get a free ride. That's really cool. Really awesome. YAY! But wait... they graduated 5 years ago and they dont get to see this money. Since it's being paid for by buying the debt, this means they werent making payments anyway... SO it didnt even benifit them at all. The only thing it did was modify their credit score and give the lending industry $35,000 they didnt have before.

I thought this was supposed to be about putting the man on his ear and teaching him a lesson? Hmmmmm. Reality is calling.

Not only did we not help 23 kids but we also forgot about interest, late fees, attorney fees and all the other other debt this $700,000 would have accumulated over the 5 years of not being paid. You're probably looking at more like... $1.4 million when all is said and done. If you've ever been in collections that long, you know the amount can EASILY double. So really, even with a free venue, and no textbooks or supplies... You really only saved about 12 or 13 kids from paying a debt they weren't paying already in the first place.

12 kids, 23 kids... either way it's $700,000 in debt that the lenders still collected $35,000 on. Do you know how much debt there is owed to lenders and collection agencies?? Do you seriously think even something as attractive sounding as $700,00 will teach the lending industry anything? Keep in mind... You didn't give them $700,000. You gave them $35,000.

Let's look at real numbers here. In just credit card debt alone, and this is based off 'average' numbers, there's at least $1.4 trillion dollars owed just in credit card debt right now that is unpaid. And that is just in credit card debt alone. It's well known that there's $1 Trillion dollars unpaid in student loans right now.

Lets say you paid a ton of credit card bills because that would help more people since the amount is less, per case. You know how much the credit card companies still are looking to collect? $1,369,199,300,000. Yup, that number is still in the trillions. Man this is really hard to put in a positive light.

Hmmm, ok I give up. Now, back in 'real life' land, we forgot all about business loans, house loans, construction loans, medical bills, school loans, the interest, the late fees, the attorney fees... and so on. I'm sure that number is in the tens of trillions of dollars at least. And you think you're going to put an industry on its ear by putting on a concert that will max out at 700 and by giving them $35,000? Even if you did a national tour for every day of the year with no expenses, you wouldn't even break the billion mark in PURCHASED debt. You would have only given them $12.7 million in actual cash... after 365 events... with no expenses whatsoever.... that people paid $50 to get into.

You're talking about playing with $35,000 in monopoly money like it's going to make a difference. You are so sadly mistaken. This is the same misdirected anger I see all over OWS. There's good ideas, that sound great at first, but when you do the Math.. it doesnt add up. All I can say is please stop wasting your time and go back to the drawing board. $35,000 of imaginary money could do so much better. $35,000 could go to helping real people right now, today, that need it. $35,000 doesnt need to be spent paying 20 kids school loans that they were never going to pay anyway. People in our country need real life food, real life shelter, real life water and real life clothes while thinking of donating all that money to the same industry youre tring to make play by new rules. It's so irresponsible and wrong that it's almost offensive.

Re: The People's Bailout

#303
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know how to hustle in the vernacular sense you can come to the USA penniless and retire wealthy. The USA is a great place if you want/need the rule of law to protect property. Overall, the US civil legal system is not corrupt. In many places in Asia and E. Europe corruption is systemic. It is much more difficult to keep a successful business in such an environment. One example is real estate escrow services wi…

Are you living in a different US? I'm not saying the path to wealth is beyond my horizon, but there's a lot in the way that only exists because previous generations managed things poorly. Someone starting a little further behind would have an exponentially harder time.

I am saying the USA is the easiest and safest place on planet earth to start your own business. If you know how to:

1. buy low & sell high 2. defer personal gratification 3. save a % of everything you earn

you can gradually grow wealthy.

The world is in recession, and the US might be starting to recover. It is a hard market right now. But it will recover and boom (and then crash) again.

I have traveled in Russia and Mexico and made friends with regular people who live there. I also studied economics at university. I am thinking about what I am writing here.

edit: I was born and raised in the USA

Two inspirational books to get started:

The Richest Man in Babylon

Andrew Carnegie and the Rise of Big Business

Re: The People's Bailout

#304
post #159
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not when the majority of jobs that create a vibrant middle class in the post-industrial United States require at least a college degree. That's a self-refuting argument. If your degree was really the ticket to a "vibrant middle class" job you'd be able to pay off your student debt. The reality is not all degrees are created equal, and people should think a little bit before they go $200k into debt for a degree that'…

> 18 year olds aren't very good at this kind of reasoning, but that's what parents are for. It is a dangerous assumption to think it is the place for a parent to judge if their children should incur the equivalent of half a decades debt when they themselves may have no comprehension of the value of a degree their kid is thinking of.

It's threads like this that make me thank my parents, who prevented me, at the age society didn't even trust me with a beer, from signing on to most than a decades worth of debt in order to go to a trendy school.

Re: The People's Bailout

#305
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I think they should try to recoup the face value from the debtor. If my debt was among the debt bought by OWS and they contacted me giving me the option to pay it off at face value so they could move forward with helping others, I'd pay it off in a second.

Which means you're probably not the kind of person who gets into this kind of debt.

Actually I am. In fact, you'd be amazed at how many people are in this kind of debt who has learned their lesson and would love to be able to get out the debt once and for all.

Re: The People's Bailout

#306
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you living in a different US? I'm not saying the path to wealth is beyond my horizon, but there's a lot in the way that only exists because previous generations managed things poorly. Someone starting a little further behind would have an exponentially harder time.

I am saying the USA is the easiest and safest place on planet earth to start your own business. If you know how to: 1. buy low & sell high 2. defer personal gratification 3. save a % of everything you earn you can gradually grow wealthy. The world is in recession, and the US might be starting to recover. It is a hard market right now. But it will recover and boom (and then crash) again. I have traveled in Russia and…

> I am very curious what your specific examples are.

The world is moving in the right direction--especially away from suburban nests of roads that require a car, which is highly relevant to my own obstacles--, so I don't see a point in elaborating.

> 1. buy low & sell high 2. defer personal gratification 3. save a % of everything you earn

What if you start with nothing, in a place with little or no physical mobility? If you're lucky, someone you have access to has connections and is willing to work with you.

> I have traveled in Russia and Mexico and made friends with regular people who live there. I also studied economics at university. I am thinking about what I am writing here.

How much time have you spent in the US? I'm assuming you don't live here from the way you write.

Re: The People's Bailout

#307
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you living in a different US? I'm not saying the path to wealth is beyond my horizon, but there's a lot in the way that only exists because previous generations managed things poorly. Someone starting a little further behind would have an exponentially harder time.

I am saying the USA is the easiest and safest place on planet earth to start your own business. If you know how to: 1. buy low & sell high 2. defer personal gratification 3. save a % of everything you earn you can gradually grow wealthy. The world is in recession, and the US might be starting to recover. It is a hard market right now. But it will recover and boom (and then crash) again. I have traveled in Russia and…

Cool. I was worried it was something more generalized.

Re: The People's Bailout

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironic you are saying this on an entrepreneurial forum Phil. As I mentioned elsewhere, Donald Trump has filed been through bankruptcy more than once.

Being and entrepeneur does not require you to approve the actions of other entrepenuers. Surely you can be an entrepeneur and have higher moral standards than Donald Trump.

I mean BK is often used as intended by entrepreneurs so they can move on to new projects.

I see your point that a useful thing can be abused.

Re: The People's Bailout

#309
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you miss the point. Systemically , exiting high school and entering college is the narrative. It is the path students are being presented as the way forward, not an option forward. Culturally, there is a very strong set of expectations placed on people wrt university education, and this narrative determines people's recognized option paths. There are strong social determinants in place, both positive and nega…

Then we need to change this narrative, because it doesn't fit the real requirements of the job world. Trade schools, apprentice programs etc are common all over the world, but not as well accepted in the US. You know who I envy? The electrician who came out last week to install a whole home surge protector. He makes excellent money, in a relatively safe work environment, and has reasonable hours. There's a whole worl…

>You know who I envy? The electrician who came out last week to install a whole home surge protector. He makes excellent money, in a relatively safe work environment, and has reasonable hours.

Not only that, nobody's going to send his job to China.

Re: The People's Bailout

#310
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you living in a different US? I'm not saying the path to wealth is beyond my horizon, but there's a lot in the way that only exists because previous generations managed things poorly. Someone starting a little further behind would have an exponentially harder time.

I am saying the USA is the easiest and safest place on planet earth to start your own business. If you know how to: 1. buy low & sell high 2. defer personal gratification 3. save a % of everything you earn you can gradually grow wealthy. The world is in recession, and the US might be starting to recover. It is a hard market right now. But it will recover and boom (and then crash) again. I have traveled in Russia and…

> edit: I was born and raised in the USA

And you have the means to travel to Russia and Mexico with enough depth to get to know people there, and went to a university.

Travel is beyond the means of most people in the US, both in time (can't get time off) and money (living paycheck to paycheck is common). That's if you're fortunate enough to be in the upper range of the middle class. Much lower and you're lucky to see a movie once a year, or participate in the broader culture at all.

What seems to matter most is an area's social and physical infrastructure. A person in the poorest part of NYC can scrape together enough for a subway ride to a better part of town to look for opportunity. They might even have access to a charity transportation service.

A person in the suburbs is doomed if their car breaks down, unless they can afford to fix it or know someone with the time to shuttle them around.

These are understandings derived from my experience and the experiences of people I know. I only took an introductory economics class at a community college, but I've also known plenty of well-educated, well-traveled people with no perspective. It seems like depth of education and experience matters more than breadth.

Consider the possibility that your studies and travels didn't open your eyes wide enough to the situation in your own country.

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