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End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#301

Post by r_lee »

btilly wrote: post #300
r_lee wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The age at which people are most likely to land on the list is 14. But a man who liked 13 year olds when he was 14, is unlikely to reoffend at 30. What is the purpose of ruining the rest of his life for a juvenile mistake? am I like misunderstanding or what does this mean exactly? I'm so confused. "reoffend" what kind of offense are we talking about here?

Sex crimes. Particularly ones involving children. Such as having sexual pictures of children.

"who liked 13 year olds when he was 14, is unlikely to reoffend at 30"

I still don't exactly understand this part.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#302

Post by maxhille »

sveme wrote: post #220
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"> Furthermore, the next massive threat to digital civil liberties is already on the agenda: Next up in the ongoing trilogue, lawmakers will negotiate whether messenger and chat services, as well as app stores, will be legally obliged to implement age verification. This would require users to provide ID documents or submit to facial scans, effectively making anonymous communication impossible and severely endangering…

There's a fairly non-invasive way to do age verification: ID cards that connect to a smartphone app that only provide a boolean age verification to the requesting service. Requesting service can be anonymous to the ID app and the requesting service can only receive a bool. That most implementation will try to collect far more data is the real concern.

My German ID can do that already AFAIK.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#303

Post by wolvoleo »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #230
ryandrake wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with modern democracies (it happens in the USA too). They only have to win once and it's law. We have to win every time.

> They only have to win once and it's law. We have to win every time. Passing legislation takes about as much effort as repealing. (The exception being if the legislation spawns a massive bureaucracy.) Chat Control 1.0 was de facto passed. It's now being unpassed. We don't have to win every time. Just more.

Considering it's a sensitive topic there'll be very little interest in repealing it. Especially if they drag up a few token cases and go like "see it's working!".

Look at all the crazy secret surveillance powers in the US. How much of that got repealed after snowden? No, people just got used to it because no politician wants to be called a tattooist terrorist friend.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#304

Post by wolvoleo »

throwaway132448 wrote: post #112
cbeach wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2016 the UK demonstrated that there is a way for the public to vote down the corpus of bad EU legislation. Of course our national govts have been pretty woeful ever since, but in 2029 we will have the opportunity to vote for genuine, dramatic change, with strong options on both the left and right side of politics. Regarding the creeping surveillance state, Reform UK have explicitly stated they will repeal the awfu…

People who think reform are anti establishment genuinely fascinate me.

And people who think they are strong and will solve anything.

These populists thrive on anger and hate. Solve the problem and those are gone. And the problems aren't the ones they champion anyway.

I have to say Labour is putting on a shit show too though. They were supposed to be new and refreshed, instead they are Tory-Lite on steroids. Worse than Blair or Miliband ever were.

Really UK politics needs some sanity :'(

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#305

Post by iknowstuff »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #131
iknowstuff wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vote against the ruling party in your smaller national election

That's a system of accountability in name but not in practice. Even if there was an option in the national elections that didn't want this stuff, convincing a majority of voters to disregard national politics for an election cycle to have an imperceptibly small impact on the council members is such an unlikely outcome the council or comission would de facto be committing genocides before voters would be mobilized, an…

I’m sympathetic to wanting a directly elected upper house instead of the council but it’ll be a hard fight to win.

The Parliament should also be empowered to initiate legislation.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#306

Post by Saline9515 »

kode-targz wrote: post #299
Saline9515 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are against paid services? Who manages the servers, updates apps, and distributes them?

I'm not sure about op, but as someone who agrees with their comment, yes, I absolutely am. I despise 99% of all digital """services""" that exist. Whether it's cloud, music/movies/series/whatever streaming, subscriptions of almost any kind... They're all extremely dystopian and anti-human. I sail the high seas for almost everything I consume digitally. When I want to support a creator I enjoy, I pay them directly (bu…

What prevents you from using Debian and a FOSS stack?

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#307

Post by cbeach »

wolvoleo wrote: post #304
throwaway132448 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who think reform are anti establishment genuinely fascinate me.

And people who think they are strong and will solve anything. These populists thrive on anger and hate. Solve the problem and those are gone. And the problems aren't the ones they champion anyway. I have to say Labour is putting on a shit show too though. They were supposed to be new and refreshed, instead they are Tory-Lite on steroids. Worse than Blair or Miliband ever were. Really UK politics needs some sanity :'(

Have you ever stopped to wonder why ~26% of the electorate might be angry though? Personally I don't like seeing 100,000+ undocumented young men of fighting age rock up in dinghys on the Kent coastline and get free hotels, food, phones and ultimately housing.

Housing is in short supply and the sight of it being reserved for unemployed economic migrants is making me pretty angry.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#308

Post by spwa4 »

hermanzegerman wrote: post #221
spwa4 wrote: post #14

... again?

They are conservatives. In Germany they also try every time to enact Mass Data Retention ("for catching Criminals"), then the courts decide it's not compatible with the constitution, and after a few years they try again. I highly doubt they have given up here too

I see the exact opposite. Let's classify parties:

EPP (Christian-democrats, ie. centrist to somewhat conservative parties): >95% voted against. These mattered more than any others

Patriots for Europe (far-right, even racist): 2/3 voted against.

"Green"/progressive parties: ~90% voted in favour

Socialists from anywhere on the spectrum (from just-barely-left-of-centre to communists): >95% voted in favour

Laissez-faire parties (meaning rightist, but not racist): largely voted in favour.

https://howtheyvote.eu/votes/189574

Leftists and Green parties desperately seem to want ChatControl (not just this vote), against literally everyone else, but especially against centrist parties.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#309

Post by EmbarrassedHelp »

miohtama wrote: post #106

Here is the EPP's plea to get this passed earlier. They even used a teddy bear image. https://www.eppgroup.eu/newsroom/epp-urges-support-for-last-... "Protecting children is not optional," said Lena Düpont MEP, EPP Group spokeswoman on Legal and Home Affairs. "We call on the S&D Group to stop hiding behind excuses and finally take responsibility. We cannot afford a safe haven for child abusers online. Every delay lea…

I have a list of organizations who are lobbying for Chat Control as well, compiled from investigative reporting articles:

> Internet Watch Foundation (IWF), the Canadian Centre for Child Protection (C3P), the International Justice Mission (IJM), ECPAT, the Children's Rights Network, World Vision, Terre des Hommes, Innocence in Danger, the World Childhood Foundation, the Stiftung digitale Chancen, the Children's Rights Network Germany, SafeToNet Foundation, Thorn, Ecpat network, the Brave organization, the PR agency Purpose, Justice Initiative, Oak Foundation, Eurochild, Missing Children Europe, Molly Rose Foundation, NSPCC, Hopewell Fund, Heat Initiative, Children’s Investment Fund Foundation

In the past two years, the Internet Watch Foundation (IWF) has been spearheading the lobbying efforts. The CEO of the IWF is Kerry Smith, and she sometimes shares her delusional beliefs on Linkedin in addition to her blog.

Many of these groups receive funding to lobby for Chat Control from the Hopewell Fund, Oak Foundation, and Children’s Investment Fund Foundation (CIFF). The British billionaire Alan M. Parker controls the Oak Foundation, and British billionaire Christopher Hohn controls the Children’s Investment Fund Foundation. The Hopewell Fund is controlled by Arabella Advisors (rebranded to Sunflower Services), and they work hard to conceal the sources of their dark money.

Sources for the organizations:

* https://netzpolitik.org/2022/dude-wheres-my-privacy-how-a-ho...

* https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/29/europol-sought-unlimite...

* https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the...

* https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2023/09/26/t...

* https://theintercept.com/2023/10/01/apple-encryption-iphone-...

* https://www.politico.eu/article/one-man-spam-campaign-ravage...

* https://www.heise.de/en/background/Missing-Link-Prevention-a...

The Spanish Prime Minster Pedro Sánchez can also be added to the list of Chat Control supporters.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#310

Post by EmbarrassedHelp »

sailfast wrote: post #27

“Congrats all we maybe fixed the problem we created in the first place! Let’s celebrate!” Also - wasn’t this program voluntary? This seems like the height of backslapping. Would have been better if they just sat on their hands and did nothing in the first place.

It was actually voluntary, and then the EU Commission got greedy and tried to make it mandatory. Now they have nothing.
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