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I tried building my startup entirely on European infrastructure

coinerella.com

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Re: I tried building my startup entirely on European infrastructure

#301
post #49

> Your users expect "Sign in with Google" and "Sign in with Apple." You can add email/password and passkeys, but removing social logins entirely is a conversion killer. I know this is true, but I genuinely don't understand it. I want email/password and passkey, I will always go out of my way to avoid "Sign in with ...". I just don't get why people love this.

It's a few things (source: I've worked on some large online B2B systems and seen signup flow funnel data for some even larger B2C systems):

1. Ease/laziness as others have mentioned. Even for a service that answers a real need, many users will bail out of the signup flow and just ... leave that need unsatisfied when they see a web form.

2. Underreported: google/apple sign-in buttons make it feel like you already have an account. The fact that the "grant access" new-signup request is a second screen and that "sign up" and "sign in" (with Google/Apple/Github/Facebook/etc.) are the same buttons to enter the funnel is huge. It's not that users are confused/forgetting whether they already have accounts (though some are); rather, it's psychological momentum created by the ambiguous language.

3. Trust and consistency. Nontechnical users just trust the recognizable brand buttons more. They don't necessarily know why/know how auth works, but they know that a lot of data breaches happen and are scared. The fact that the embed button almost always looks the same/familiar is massive. I suspect that it would also be a conversion killer if the "sign in with apple/google" buttons were styled to look totally different and not contain logos.

4. A lot of semi-technical folks don't like remembering passwords (and password managers--even good device-integrated ones--aren't as reliable at autofilling as a lot of casual users would like). Others know that it's a bad idea to reuse passwords. As a result, people use the button that doesn't require them to pick a password they'd have to remember.

5. Impression of privacy. Some (especially older) nontechnical users have a significant aversion to typing in their personal info (name/address/CC number) into online forms, so they pick the option that doesn't require that.

6. Technical people who prefer SSO because it gives (on the SSO provider side) a list of every integrated account; better permissions control (for services that integrate with e.g. Google for more than just login); a marginal chance of a little less data being stored on a service's servers versus the regular make-an-account option; somewhat fewer opportunities for a service to screw up auth by building it themselves wrong. This demographic is small compared to less technical users.

That's all presented without comment. Some of those points are based on exploitative provider behavior, or user ignorance. I'm just explaining the decisionmaking factors, not defending them.

Add all those up, and you definitely get a conversion killer.

Re: I tried building my startup entirely on European infrastructure

#304
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many services do you have subscribed to? from simple PHPBB boards to very much official product and online shops? How do you manage all those username/password? The single point of failure of relying on Google/Apple is real, but so is the manual and laborious process to auth via email/password and the managment that goes with it.

I have 400 entries in my password manager. I manage them with my password manager. There is no single point of failure.

[deleted]

Re: I tried building my startup entirely on European infrastructure

#306
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and I support anything that makes security by default easier. I'd love to see adoption numbers for in-browser password managers, though, because I feel it's not very high yet.

> I'd love to see adoption numbers for in-browser password managers, though, because I feel it's not very high yet. Why specifically in-browser?

Because without that the argument of "everyone has a password manager" fails. Tons of people don't have 1Password or Bitwarden or Lastpass or KeypassXC or whatever.

So sure, they might technically have a password manager installed, in that every major browser has a password manager included. But do they actually use it? That's what really matters.

Re: I tried building my startup entirely on European infrastructure

#307
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not surprise me that people choose the path of least resistance. I find it sad that they happily connect everything to Google/Apple. What surprises me is that it is a "conversion killer". So if you ask people to create an account, it's sooooo very hard for them that they will just leave. And spend the next 30 minutes scrolling TikTok, I guess?

Probably suggests that the service is less valuable to them than TikTok.

You'd be surprised. I've worked on a municipal/local-area webapp that launched with auth and a create-account form. Userbase in the low 100ks, a few interactions a year. It was an ordinary create-account form: name, address, email/phone, no payment info or government ID. The only alternative to this service--and I do mean only--was to go into a city office and wait in line/fill out forms. Failure to do either resulted in a fine (I forget how much; in USD it would have been less than $50 I'm pretty sure).

Before we added SSO, huge numbers of users would enter but never complete the signup flow. We assumed they were making the (baffling) choice to take time to go to an office and wait inline over filling out a web form. A year later, we added Google and Facebook login. Failures to finish signup dropped to almost zero (a lot of folks were still bailing out of the manual create-account form without finishing, but they were then falling back to Google/Facebook).

More surprising, that year the net number of signups (across web and brick and mortar) more than tripled.

People weren't choosing in-person over a filling out the create-account form. They were choosing to pay a fine instead of filling out the create-account form.

So ... I don't know about "less valuable than TikTok", but a lot of folks' decisionmaking sure is wild.

Re: I tried building my startup entirely on European infrastructure

#308
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HP makes them, so does Dell. They cost a bit extra, but essentially the whole Federal government runs on nothing else. The difference between EU and US is that it's possible to make all components in the US, using US equipment, and so some companies do because it commands a pretty decent premium. It's not even that hard since most components (e.g. reference motherboard designs) are still designed and actually built i…

> The difference between EU and US is that it's possible to make all components in the US, using US equipment False. ASML is in the EU.

And the US does not need ASML. Europe could use ASML, but doesn't.

Re: I tried building my startup entirely on European infrastructure

#309
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both available choices "share the information with Google" for most people. The majority of email account creations use a Gmail or Google Workspace address, so Google gets the information either way, and in Europe most use Android so can't sign in with Apple.

Again that's off topic. I'm not talking about the fact that people choose the Google SSO instead of username/password. I'm talking about the fact that people choose to not use the service if there is no SSO.

Because they don't want to have those experiences where they sigh, roll their eyes, then try and remember a password they made months ago just so they can continue using this thing they signed up for. So they just skip the service altogether.

Re: I tried building my startup entirely on European infrastructure

#310
post #225

Great post, I did a similar switch mid last year. Hetzner was something I already used, so I just doubled down. I have a single OVH instance where I ma playing with Openclaw, but that was because I was having issues with Hetzner that day on their new instance page (was fixed the next day) I use Bunny for my CDN, I just wish they have the capabilityt to route IPv4 and IPv6 traffic to IPv6 only origins. If your origin…

How does dot.bs make money? The about page and FAQ don’t explain what they’re monetizing.

Why would it need to make money, it's just a registry of information and a small about page with a list of entries. It probably runs on sqlite on a single $5 VM. Or a single db.

Other than that, maybe ads

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