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AI is a business model stress test

dri.es

301–310 of 361 posts

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#301
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support your right to have an opinion, but in my opinion, thank God this is just your opinion. Copyright, as practiced in late 20 and this century, is a tool for big corps to extract profits from actual artists, creators, and consumers of this art[0] equally. Starving artists do not actually benefit. Look at Spotify (owned and squeezed by record labels) giving 70% of the revenue to the record labels, while artists…

So you don’t like big corps getting ever richer by hiding behind copyright. How about my books? I’ve published a few, make maybe $500 a month from them. Is it fine for the LLMs to rip them off?

1. Will people stop buying your books if LLMs have the information from them?

2. Will people stop buying your books if they can get them from the library? Is a library ripping you off?

3. Assuming your books are non-fiction (otherwise the answer to (1) would be a clear "no"), am I ripping you off if I read your books, create a course that teaches the same things (that you tought me through your book) and earn mega-money because I'm mega-skilled at marketing?

4. How about if I lend my copy to dozens of my friends, who are all very interested in the stuff you write but don't want to pay themselves?

5. Did OpenAI go to the bookstore, buy your book and scan it? Or did Amazon or any other ebook retailer just gave them the book PDF when they asked nicely? How did the rip off happen?

6. If an Anthropic employee buys your book in a bookstore, scans it and destroys the physical copy, and the digital equivalent is only used to train Claude, is that a ripoff?

This stuff is complex and as a society we're just starting to grapple with the consequences. Cory's making the case against copyright being used as a tool much more eloquently than I am - I encourage you to read it if you haven't already.

BTW in your particular case, I'd say you're pretty safe. Nobody stops buying books because they can get the same info from LLMs. If that's your concern, you might as well be mad at the Internet at large.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#302

In my opinion LLMs are intellectual property theft. Just as if I started distributing copies of books. This substantially reduces the incentive for the creation of new IP. All written text, art work, etc needs to come imbued with a GPL style license: if you train your model on this, your weights and training code must be published.

I both agree and disagree with you.

The thing is, copyright law is not really on your side. Viewing copyrighted material without paying for it is not generally something people get fined for. A lot of training falls under fair use that overrides whatever license you come up with. Disney can’t stop me from uploading clips of their movies alongside commentary and review because fair use allows that. LLMs generally aren’t redistributing code, which is the thing that copyright protects.

If I inspect some GPL code and get inspired by it and write something similar, the GPL license doesn’t apply to me.

It has always been the case that if you don’t want other people to apply fair use to your works, your only recourse is to keep those works private. I suspect that now individuals and companies that don’t want their code to be trained on will simply keep the code private.

Now, there have been times where LLMs have reproduced verbatim copyright material. The NYTimes sued OpenAI over this issue. I believe they’ve settled and come up with a licensing scheme unless I’m mixing up my news stories.

Second thing, your issue becomes moot if there exists a model that only trains off of MIT-licensed code, and there is a TON of that code out there.

Third thing, your issue becomes moot if users have agreed to submit their code for training, like what the GitHub ToS does for users who don’t change their settings, or if giant companies with giant code bases just use their own code to train LLMs.

Where I agree with you is that perhaps copyright law should evolve. Still, I think there’s a practical “cat is out of the bag” issue.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#303

This goes way deeper than open source businesses. Imagine I’m a company just big enough to entertain adopting Salesforce for CRM. It’s a big chunk of money, but our sales can absorb the pain. With GenAI as an enterprise architect, one of the options I’m now recommending is to create a custom CRM for our business and skip the bloated enterprise SaaS platform. We can gather CRM requirements fast, build fast, and delive…

>> Our sales people can make feature requests I can tell you with near-100% certainty. This isn’t what you want to happen. Disaster in the making. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. There is very little competitive advantage to be gained from this type of effort in most companies.

What we "want" and what businesses will demand are very different things. I can tell you from 40 years build software, all companies care about is functional software. They don't care about code quality, maintainability, or tech debt. Never seen a single CTO say, "Let's carve out 20% of our sprints for tech debt," even though as architects we recommend something like that all the time.

The motto has always been, "Make it work."

Not, "Make it perfect."

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this mindset. I solve problems on stackoverflow and github because I want those problems to stay solved. If the fixes are more convenient for people to access as weights in an LLM... who cares? I'd be all for forcing these companies to open source their models. I'm game to hear other proposals. But "just stop contributing to the commons" strikes me as a very negative result here. We desperately nee…

I have mixed opinions on the "AI=theft" argument people make, and I generally lean towards "it's not theft", but I do see the argument. If I put something on Github with a GPL 3 license, it's supposed to require anyone with access to the binary to also have access to the source code. The concern is, if you think that it is theft, then someone can train an LLM on your GPL code, and then a for-profit corporation can us…

The thing is, LLMs aren’t redistributing your code. You’d have a minuscule chance of an LLM actually reproducing your code verbatim without major modifications.

Copyright and copyleft only deal with source code distribution. Your last sentence is not really true from a factual perspective.

I think if you really believe in the open source free software mentality that code should be available to help everyone and improvements to it should also be available and not locked up behind a corporate wall (e.g., a company using GPL code and releasing it with modifications without redistributing the source code), LLMs should be the least of your worries since they don’t do that action. On a literal level they don’t violate GPLv2/v3.

Perhaps copyright law needs new concepts to respond to this change in capability compared to the past, but so far there has been very little legal success with companies and individuals trying to litigate AI companies for copyright violations. Direct violations have been rare and only get more rare over time as training methods evolve.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s not theft, because you’re not redistributing. It’s allowed, just like humans are allowed to learn from copyrighted content.

> just like humans are allowed to learn from copyrighted content humans learning : machines learning == whale swimming : submarine swimming It's not the exact 100% same thing. Therefore you cannot base any rights on it. If you still don't buy it, consider this analogy: killing a human vs. destroying a machine Thank god that we're not using your line of thinking here.

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Re: AI is a business model stress test

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are the same selling points as CSS-in-JSS libs like Styled Components. Or CSS Components. Except your last point about "low-level CSS styles" which I'd argue is a weak point. You really should learn the underlying CSS to gain mastery of it. Not arguing for one thing over another, just saying Tailwind really never had anything to offer me personally, but maybe if I wasn't already proficient in CSS and the other…

Can you suggest a best place to learn CSS in-depth, from first principles? (as opposed to, say, simple tutorials)

Josh Comeau's CSS course is excellent: https://css-for-js.dev/

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#307
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed opinions on the "AI=theft" argument people make, and I generally lean towards "it's not theft", but I do see the argument. If I put something on Github with a GPL 3 license, it's supposed to require anyone with access to the binary to also have access to the source code. The concern is, if you think that it is theft, then someone can train an LLM on your GPL code, and then a for-profit corporation can us…

The thing is, LLMs aren’t redistributing your code. You’d have a minuscule chance of an LLM actually reproducing your code verbatim without major modifications. Copyright and copyleft only deal with source code distribution. Your last sentence is not really true from a factual perspective. I think if you really believe in the open source free software mentality that code should be available to help everyone and impro…

Again, I tend fall more on the “it’s not theft” side of the debate.

That said, haven’t part of the complaints about Copilot and the like been specifically because they are reproducing large chunks of code verbatim?

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be no royalties, simply make all the models that trained on the public internet also be required to be public. This won't help tailwind in this case, but it'll change the answer to "Should I publish this thing free online?" from "No, because a few AI companies are going to exclusively benefit from it" to "Yes, I want to contribute to the corpus of human knowledge."

Contributing to human knowledge doesn’t pay the bills though

[dead]

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#309
> The value got extracted, but compensation isn't flowing back. That bothers me, and it deserves a broader policy conversation.

It bothers me, too. But, look at the history of the internet. There's no reason to expect we'll be able to fix this problem.

1. Search engines drove traffic to news/content sites, which monetized via ads. Humans barely tolerate these ad filled websites. And yet, local news went into steep decline, and the big national players got an ever-larger share of attention. The large, national sites were able to keep a subscriber-based paywall model. These were largely legacy media sites (ie: NYT).

2. News sites lost the local classifieds market, as the cost of advertising online went to zero (ie: Craigslist). This dynamic was a form of creative destruction - a better solution ate the business of an older solution.

3. Blog monetization was always tough, beyond ads. Unless you were a big blog, you couldn't make a living. What about getting a small amount of money per view from random visitors? The internet never developed a micro-payment or subscription model for the set of open sites - the blogosphere, etc. The best we got were closed platforms like Substack and Medium, which could control access via paywalls.

All this led to the internet being largely funded through the "attention economy": ads mostly, paywalls & subscriptions some.

The attention economy can't sustain itself when there are fewer eyeballs:

1. Tailwind docs have to be added just once to the training set for the AI to be proficient in that framework forever. So one HTTP request, more or less, to get the docs and docs are no longer required.

2. Tailwind does change, so an AI will want to access the docs for the version its working with. This will require access at inference time. This is more analogous to visiting a site.

Re: AI is a business model stress test

#310

In my opinion LLMs are intellectual property theft. Just as if I started distributing copies of books. This substantially reduces the incentive for the creation of new IP. All written text, art work, etc needs to come imbued with a GPL style license: if you train your model on this, your weights and training code must be published.

I think there is a real issue here, but I do not think it is as simple as calling it theft in the same way as copying books. The bigger problem is incentives. We built a system where writing docs, tutorials, and open technical content paid off indirectly through traffic, subscriptions, or services. LLMs get a lot of value from that work, but they also break the loop that used to send value back to the people and comp…

The problem is there was a social contract. Someone spent their time and money to create a product that they shared for free, provided you visit their site and see their offerings. In this way they could afford to keep making this free product that everyone benefited from.

LLMs broke that social contract. Now that product will likely go away.

People can twist themselves into knots about how LLMs create “value” and that makes all of this ok, but the truth is they stole information to generate a new product that generates revenue for themselves at the cost of other people’s work. This is literally theft. This is what copyright law is meant to protect. If LLM manufacturers are making money off someone’s work, they need to compensate people for that work, same as any client or customer.

LLMs are not doing this for the good of society. They themselves are making money off this. And I’m sure if someone comes along with LLM 2.0 and rips them off, they’re going to be screaming to governments and attorneys for protection.

The ironic part of all of this is that LLMs are literally killing the businesses they need to survive. When people stop visiting (and paying) Tailwind, Wikipedia, news sites, weather, and so on, and only use LLMs, those sites and services will die. Heck, there’s even good reason to think LLMs will kill the Internet at large, at least as an information source. Why in the hell would I publish news or a book or events on the Internet if it’s just going to be stolen and illegally republished through an LLM without compensating me for my work? Once this information goes away or is locked behind nothing but paywalls, I hope everyone is ready for the end of the free ride.

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