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Staying ahead of censors in 2025

forum.torproject.org

301–310 of 349 posts

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. It's about him being vocally biased and claiming his purpose in media is specific to an agenda. That agenda is specifically not journalism. So yeah... Really doesn't have anything to do with the motives you are falsely attributing to me. Might want to read your own sources before you start flinging accusations. You can try to twist my words however you want, but it seems your usual targets are much more easily…

> and claiming his purpose in media is specific to an agenda. This is literally every single media outlet's owners, so he's at least more honest than the rest of them.

That is false. There are still decent outlets dedicated to journalism. Yeah, besos and buddies are fkn once reputable journalistic sources. But there are still independent outlets focused on journalistic integrity.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means defending Nazi shit by claiming you're allowed to say anything you want. Timmy: "I think it should be legal to kill Jews." Moderator: (bans Timmy) Timmy (elsewhere): "Help, I'm being persecuted for expressing my beliefs!" / "Moderator X is a fascist oppressing people based on their opinions!" / "Platform X hates free speech!" XKCD covered this phenomenon years ago, but wasn't heeded: https://xkcd.com/1357/ Y…

Well, censorship has been recentky applied to Palestine Action supporters too (they're routinely arrested in the UK, and they're normally far leftists), so it's not only nazis. The thing that makes hate speech laws safe and fuzzy is that they're initially applied to restrict the speech of your enemies. Then the tide changes, and the same laws get applied against you and your friends.

They're not excusing themselves with "I can say whatever I want to" and "arrests for speech are invalid", are they? - they're not hiding behind free speech. They're excusing themselves with reasons like "You're arresting me for terrorism but I didn't do any terrorism" and "The UK is helping Israel do the next Holocaust, and it's important that we talk about that and hopefully stop doing it"

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder is just the killing of people who are liked by those who control the definition of murder. But everyone still agrees murder should be illegal.

Murder is a far brighter line than hate, and therefore a law against it enables far less arbitrary power.

It means ICE officers can kill you but you can't kill ICE officers. This is arguably an even worse asymmetry than the one about speech.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any examples of people being prosecuted for hate speech by stating nothing but dry facts?

Does the law explicitly specify that dry facts would be excluded? Or is it sufficiently broad that dry facts could be included if some over-zealous bureaucrats get it in their head that some speech or people are problematic? I am interested in the letter of the law, because that's what matters, not how it's being applied while the winds are blowing in a particular direction.

Okay, so just to be clear, you don't have even a single example of someone being prosecuted under hate speech laws for stating facts in the 40-odd years since its passage? Why is this not just concern trolling?

As to the general question, no, a statement being true does not immunise it from an accusation of it being used to stir up or incite hatred, or at the very least such a defence is not defined within the Public Order Act 1986. We do have the Human Rights Act which protects Freedom of Expression, but whether you could use it or other defences is pure speculation on my part: I would need to see some actual caselaw.

I've attempted my own searches but have only encountered the usual suspects: holocaust deniers and their ilk. Please let me know if you find such a case because I genuinely think that would be interesting to debate, but debating over pure speculation and innuendo is very boring.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I haven't tried reporting them to the police because A) it's not illegal speech and B) I'm not a loser

Uh, it is illegal. That's why people get arrested and convicted for it.

No, what they've done is create a low and unclear bar for what constitutes criminal speech, which allows the police and judges to apply the law selectively. So yeah maybe technically it's illegal but you won't get arrested for saying "eat the rich".

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a quote that justifies homicide of the wealthy class, popularised during the French revolution: "When the people shall have nothing more to eat, they will eat the rich"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_the_rich I guess the French Revolution was a good example of murdering the rich tbf.

If 250 yr old associations had that level of power, then "Vive la France" would be in serious doubt.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#307
"As the severity of censorship in Russia has increased, WebTunnel has also received several fixes, such as SNI imitation and safe non-WebPKI certificate support with certificate-chain pinning to ensure it can withstand more kinds of censorship, including SNI allowlisting and the rapid blocking of distributed bridges."

"SNI imitation" and "non-WebPKI certificate support" sounds like it could be useful for purposes other than evading censorship in any particular country

Discerning web users around the globe might also be interesting evading data collection, surveillance and ads by so-called "tech" companies, for example

https://blog.torproject.org/introducing-webtunnel-evading-ce...

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#308
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. 1. "Postponed" is not "cancelled" 2. "Postponed" is entirely normal within British politics. For most of my life, even the timing of general elections were at the whim of the government. 3. Given how Starmer polls, the delay is almost certainly going to make things un -favourable for him. Also unfavourable for Labour, unless they kick him out first. Not that it would matter much if your conspiracy theory held wat…

"My conspiracy theory" is a set of facts that you and the source you cited (whose so-called "fact check" was mostly attempting to put into context) find really inconvenient. Fact 1: Starmer and his party are polling badly. Fact 2: Starmer and his party delayed several local elections, many of which were in constituencies where they currently hold power and won't afterward. This is not a good set of facts, regardless…

Your conspiracy theory is that Starmer got anything out of delaying, which you overstated as "cancelled", a thing commonly delayed in British politics.

I literally agreed with you in my original post (i.e. before you replied to me, unless you're both accounts) that he's not popular.

With a graph.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d much rather get arrested in Britain than Russia or Iran. And I certainly wouldn’t put the UK in the same bucket as Russia and Iran. Not even close. Hate speech is a problem. If it wasn’t, why are Russia and China spending so much on troll farms? It’s a direct attack on a democracy’s ability to form consensus. I don’t think we’ve found the right, effective way to deal with this problem yet, but I applaud any democ…

So to be clear, your sole expectation of a liberal democracy is that it have a better judicial system than Russia or Iran. And beyond that, you applaud any democratic country's efforts to reign in speech by arresting their own citizens in order to combat foreign influence operations? And the fulcrum of this argument is that we believe that Russia and China have uniquely pernicious influence operations and there are n…

I probably made my point not very well. I am indeed worried about freedom of speech, and your example about Mccarthy ism is very very valud. I come from Germany; the Nazis, and later the Stasi, were masters in suppressing freedom of speech, and both committed the most brutal atrocities that must never be repeated (and also, as a side note, completely ran the country they ruled into the ground).

Freedom of speech is really, really important. And yes, we absolutely must defend it. But it bothers me that it is used as a complete killer argument when politicians try to talk about other problems.

Our societies are getting more and more polarized. We are being bullied by various actors, and whenever someone points it out someone else (often the perpetrator) is quick to hide behind the false argument of freedom of speech.

I personally really believe that we need to do something against that polarization. It’s an attack vector that’s very actively and very effectively being exploited by adversaries, foreign and domestic alime. It’s not a new thing, propaganda and misinformation is centuries old, but in the age of the internet the dynamics change, and we need to adapt.

This is a super complex problem. And there is a huge risk that people abuse it to implement surveillance they always wanted to have. But yes, my general position is that I think it’s good that proposals are being made, and because of that, I don’t want to see Starmer in the same bucket as Putin in this discussion. It’s also good that there are fights about which proposals are good and bad. But my overall feeling is that we ignored the problem for too long, and now we have to catch up. Otherwise, we’ll just get more and more polarized societies, and this really, really worries me.

It may at this point also be worth pointing out that the proposals really are very different.

- The UK went for a centralist proposal on age verification around porn, which can very easily turn into a surveillance tool. I think it’s a terrible solution.

- Australia opts for banning social media for minors. Doesn’t strike me as a big surveillance tool. Maybe extreme if you don’t share their view on the dangers of social media, but clearly a very different approach, and also a different problem they think they identified to the UK

- Germany goes for better parental controls, i.e. mandating manufacturers to make it really easy for parents to enable a walled garden for their kids. I like it because it’s still up to the parents whether to enable it or not, and no government surveillance is involved at all.

The cool thing of having different countries experiment with different approaches - not just solutions, but also assumptions on what problems would need fixing - is that you can run many experiments in parallel. The scientist in me is very happy about that.

If we’re lucky, one or two of these will over time come out as great solutions and get widely adopted.

Re: Staying ahead of censors in 2025

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, censorship has been recentky applied to Palestine Action supporters too (they're routinely arrested in the UK, and they're normally far leftists), so it's not only nazis. The thing that makes hate speech laws safe and fuzzy is that they're initially applied to restrict the speech of your enemies. Then the tide changes, and the same laws get applied against you and your friends.

They're not excusing themselves with "I can say whatever I want to" and "arrests for speech are invalid", are they? - they're not hiding behind free speech. They're excusing themselves with reasons like "You're arresting me for terrorism but I didn't do any terrorism" and "The UK is helping Israel do the next Holocaust, and it's important that we talk about that and hopefully stop doing it"

Yet, they're being silenced thanks to hate speech laws, laws that originally were drafted "to control the nazis". See how it cuts both ways?
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