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France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

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Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#301

Post by rstuart4133 »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #9

Is it safe to assume, then, that Google and Apple already have backdoors in their operating systems as likely requested by many governments around the world (not least of which the one from their home country)? Or is GrapheneOS the only one built securely enough to need to be leaned upon? Either way, makes Google and Apple look bad and/or incompetent and GrapheneOS look like some kind of beacon of user protection / p…

> Is it safe to assume, then, that Google and Apple already have backdoors in their operating systems as likely requested by many governments around the world

I don't know whether it is safe to assume. But if they are complying with Australian law, specifically the Assistance and Access Bill (2018) [0], then they must write an undetectable backdoor for the Australia government if asked (that's the assistance the bill's name refers to), and push it any phone the government demands (that's the access bit).

The only way to avoid this as far as I can tell is to run a free open source distribution. Unlike the paid systems such Windows and iPhone, the free distributions do not have the "billing relationship" their customers the proprietary companies are so fond of. It's that billing relationship that allows them to target only the devices owned by a specific individual.

The Australian's must do that targeting because that law demands they don't introduce a systemic weakness into every phone. Any sort of backdoor is considered a systemic weakness. I dunno what laws other countries operate under, or how well they follow the laws they do have, but I'd be surprised if Australia wasn't following its own laws. That means if your device runs a true open source distro that doesn't track it's users, in Australia its truly your device.

[0] https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio...

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#302

Post by ekjhgkejhgk »

colordrops wrote: post #158
ekjhgkejhgk wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying this for years: the more power you have the higher standard you should be held in. In most societies on the planet it's the other way around.

Everyone agrees with this obviously but it's like saying that we should be able to levitate or live in utopia. It's almost a law of nature that the types that become powerful are not your most savory individuals and will use the power to reinforce their positions.

No, not everyone agrees. A LOT a people buy into "oh but they're a really important person, they should be made extra allowances".

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#303

Post by _ache_ »

ovi256 wrote: post #167
maelito wrote: post #63

The linked article from Le Parisien (a big French billionaire-owned newspaper) is quite nuanced. It gives the police's view on narco-trafic crime, but also Graphene's take : "Criminals and traffickers also use knives." This organization, which is not a company but a foundation, emphasizes that its solution is used by ordinary people who dislike how apps and operating systems handle their data. It adds that if crimina…

> Le Parisien (a big French billionaire-owned newspaper) They're all billionaire owned. As an example, left wing newspaper Liberation has Kretinsky among the owners

Yeah, "Le media" and "Mediapart" are "left wing" newspaper and not billionaire owned, there is right wing too, but they are smalls. Libé isn't owned by Kretinsky but Patrick Drahi, Kretinsky owns Mariane (right to far-right now...).

But anyway yeah, in France (and in other countries too ) there is a media oligarchy.

Check the France problem: https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cartes/PPA https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/IMG/png/poster_medias_fran...

Other countries with broken media ecosystem: - Australia: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/17/the-br...

But also USA and Poland for example.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#304

Post by sunshine-o »

johnwayne666 wrote: post #202

HN title: "France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors" LQDN: "Dans ces articles, la cheffe de la section cybercriminalité du parquet de Paris – à l'origine de l'arrestation de Pavel Durov – menace également les développeurs·es de GrapheneOs. Interviewée, elle prévient qu'elle ne s'« empêchera pas de poursuivre les éditeurs, si des liens sont découverts avec une organisation crimi…

France basically always had very good PR portraying the country as "romantic" and a champion of freedom but reality has almost always been very different.

It was very unfree in the 16th century, what led to the French revolution, which was a nightmare, then military dictatorship. The 20th century was not much better and never forget France collaborated very quickly with the third Reich. Then De Gaulle has some sort of soft military dictatorship with a secret police and a total control of the media.

Today their police is very aggressive, their justice system highly politicized. And as always a dominating bureaucracy.

The state is getting more and more aggressive as drugs and violence are rampant.

It is by far the country in Europe I had the worst interactions with the police.

There are a lot of beautiful things to see there but today I try to avoid it for business and leisure.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#305

Post by izacus »

arcbyte wrote: post #264
izacus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing though is - knives, fast cars and cash aren't built with deliberate motivation of thwarting the law enforcement and criminal investigations. GrapheneOS and its systems are - you can walk through history and see that they're deliberately working on systems that defeat law enforcements efforts of collecting data from seized devices and tracking criminal networks. This is a massive difference - even for knives…

I think your point is that there is evidence that the intention of some or all of the developers and/or the organization as a whole is to make law enforcement more difficult. You go on to argue that this intention fundamentally alters how society, or at least law enforcement arms of government, should view this technology. Specifically, I take your argument to be that law enforcement should or will treat them as acco…

This is exactly what is going to happen no matter how much you downvote me or scream about it.

They'll be targeted by the governments because of that perception.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#306

Post by izacus »

unethical_ban wrote: post #108
izacus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing though is - knives, fast cars and cash aren't built with deliberate motivation of thwarting the law enforcement and criminal investigations. GrapheneOS and its systems are - you can walk through history and see that they're deliberately working on systems that defeat law enforcements efforts of collecting data from seized devices and tracking criminal networks. This is a massive difference - even for knives…

There is no way to have a completely secure operating system, safe from hackers and spy organizations and thieves, that is also accessible at the whim of law enforcement. Period. If we can't trust hosted services to protect our data, and we can't trust our own computers to preserve our data, the right to privacy simply doesn't exist.

The goal of law enforcement isn't to give you secure operating system. It's to find people who they perceive as criminals.

You don't need to persuade me about it. You need to persuade your cops and governments that having your OS secure outweighs their wish to make crime fighting easy.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#307

Post by izacus »

LenaRyouna wrote: post #116
izacus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing though is - knives, fast cars and cash aren't built with deliberate motivation of thwarting the law enforcement and criminal investigations. GrapheneOS and its systems are - you can walk through history and see that they're deliberately working on systems that defeat law enforcements efforts of collecting data from seized devices and tracking criminal networks. This is a massive difference - even for knives…

To hell with the governments and law enforcement, privacy is a right and is not a weapon.

Yes, repeat that loudly again so they'll know you're really their opponent :P

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#308

Post by StopDisinfo910 »

strcat wrote: post #286
johnwayne666 wrote: post #202

HN title: "France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors" LQDN: "Dans ces articles, la cheffe de la section cybercriminalité du parquet de Paris – à l'origine de l'arrestation de Pavel Durov – menace également les développeurs·es de GrapheneOs. Interviewée, elle prévient qu'elle ne s'« empêchera pas de poursuivre les éditeurs, si des liens sont découverts avec une organisation crimi…

France has made it clear they expect to have a backdoor in end-to-end encryption apps and disk encryption. They've been saying that it's unacceptable not to have a backdoor in a bunch of these news stories they've gotten published by contacting the media. They've said if we don't cooperate with that, they'll take similar actions against us as they did SkyECC and Encrochat meaning hijacking our servers and trying to h…

> They've said if we don't cooperate with that, they'll take similar actions against us as they did SkyECC and Encrochat meaning hijacking our servers and trying to have us arrested.

No, they haven’t.

You are letting your paranoia talk by widely amplifying the content of two newspapers articles in media affiliated with the far right.

I’m quite surprised by your reactions to be fair because both SkyECC and Encrochat were actually affiliated with organised crimes. As far as I know, GrapheneOS isn’t.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#309

Post by martin-t »

balamatom wrote: post #282
martin-t wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying this too but lately I think the fundamental notion of power is wrong. There's 2 perspectives which are 2 sides of the same coin: --- All social relationships should be consensual. This means based on _fully-informed_ consent which can be revoked at any time. This already marks employment as exploitative because one side of the negotiation has more information and therefore more bargaining power. Not…

Fuck yeah preach. If someone claims to be "representing" me (whatever the fuck that means)... ...even more so if they are "representing" me alongside millions of others, i.e. in a very abstract sense (what do a million people have in common? everything and nothing)... ...and especially if the "representation" is concluded in "winning" a ritual bureaucratic gauntlet which gives you the right to send organized murderer…

I like the application of Dunbar's number, though I am torn on (2). The largest countries currently have over 1 billion citizens, that's still 10 million representatives. That's as much as some countries.

One solution is to say that no country should be so large anyway. And I'd like that, creating such huge power structures (hierarchical or not) is dangerous. But realistically, sometimes they are needed for defense. A lot of power structures are shaped by the necessity of organized defense (and can then be used for organized attack).

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#310

Post by izacus »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #104
izacus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing though is - knives, fast cars and cash aren't built with deliberate motivation of thwarting the law enforcement and criminal investigations. GrapheneOS and its systems are - you can walk through history and see that they're deliberately working on systems that defeat law enforcements efforts of collecting data from seized devices and tracking criminal networks. This is a massive difference - even for knives…

Graphene shouldn't have to reckon with the abuse of government, we should step in and speak up for them. If having a secure device becomes criminal, only the criminals will have secure devices. Law enforcement is being lazy by trying to rely on mass surveillance rather than espionage tactics to catch criminals. Criminals learned long ago how to work around surveillance, so this doesn't really work on them. But it doe…

I don't think quoting American politicians which failed to setup a government preventing Trumpism is going to be very persuasive for European governments... or European people.
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