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TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

typescriptlang.org

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Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#301

Post by BrendanEich »

Floopsy wrote: post #222

(Wikipedia) “Some examples, like Dart, portend that JavaScript has fundamental flaws and to support these scenarios requires a ‘clean break’ from JavaScript in both syntax and runtime. We disagree with this point of view.” - Microsoft’s JavaScript team If Google comes out with Dart, well, then there's no need for that. But it's ok for Microsoft to be secretly working on their own Javascript 2.0. Just sayin' - Why cri…

Also, no "JS will be replaced" threat, no proprietary native VM in IE-prototype to advantage it over other browsers running TypeScript compiled to JS.

But I agree it is another case of two-faced behavior, not in the way you suggest. The IE blog post against Dart rejects a "clean break" and TypeScript builds on ES6. That's consistent.

What is not consistent is how similar parts (but not all) of TypeScript are to ES4, which MS opposed vigorously. Time has passed and ES4 had its own problems, so bygones.

Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#302

Post by dmorgan »

BrendanEich wrote: post #300
dmorgan wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know, ECMAScript 6 looks a lot like Coffeescript, and ECMAScript 6 modules look a lot like Node modules. The fact that after all this time and efforts, ES6 won't be released for another year plus, speaks volumes about the "design by committee" thing.

Nope, spec finalization follows shipping. First, Firefox and Chrome (under a flag, to be removed) already ship great pieces of ES6. JSC (Safari) and IE prototypes coming too. This is necessary to test interop and design soundness. Second, we don't do "Design by Committee", we use the "Champions" model where 1 or 2 people design a proposal and a larger number beat it into consensus shape without "redesign". Nothing's…

Wow. Didn't expect a reply from "THE Eich" itself. Honoured.

>Nope, spec finalization follows shipping.

Still, shipping ES6 is also scaled back at this time, and it requires special flags and hoops to be enabled.

This means actual mainstream use (the way we know use HTML5, IE7 be damned) will be possible 2-3 years in the future at the minimum, which would be like 6-7 years from the beginning of the whole process.

This is W3C-level waiting times, especially considering that ES now is essentially the same it was in 1999, with minimal changes to the language or the standard libs.

>Nothing's perfect, least of all with multi-browser standards, but if you have an alternative for evolving the actual JS language implemented by browsers, lay it on us.

I would wish for a "one guy sets them all straight, it's his way or the highway" benevolent dictator model, but I understand that while it works for Ruby or Scala or whatever, it doesn't work in JS case where you _have_ to have 4 different implementation by 4 browser vendors to have it adopted.

I think what those vendors need is something to force their hand, but don't know what that could be.

Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#303

Post by gsnedders »

dmorgan wrote: post #302
BrendanEich wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, spec finalization follows shipping. First, Firefox and Chrome (under a flag, to be removed) already ship great pieces of ES6. JSC (Safari) and IE prototypes coming too. This is necessary to test interop and design soundness. Second, we don't do "Design by Committee", we use the "Champions" model where 1 or 2 people design a proposal and a larger number beat it into consensus shape without "redesign". Nothing's…

Wow. Didn't expect a reply from "THE Eich" itself. Honoured. > Nope, spec finalization follows shipping. Still, shipping ES6 is also scaled back at this time, and it requires special flags and hoops to be enabled. This means actual mainstream use (the way we know use HTML5, IE7 be damned) will be possible 2-3 years in the future at the minimum, which would be like 6-7 years from the beginning of the whole process. Th…

90% marketshare was effective for IE6 forcing other vendors' hands. Not that that's a good model to go back to. :)

Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#304

Post by marshray »

fusiongyro wrote: post #259
maratd wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you have been happier with that? Yes. Google (and others) need to stop releasing half-baked products. You release something half-baked, even if it gets up to speed down the road, people will still have perceptions of it being half-baked. The above exchange is typical.

I heard a kid complaining about Java being slow yesterday. People remember their first experiences for a long, long time after they stop being true.

This kid had a slow experience with Java a long, long time ago?

Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#305

Post by marshray »

PommeDeTerre wrote: post #285
pacomerh wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, you're generalizing. I know many JS developers and they all love Javascript in one way or another.

Of these developers, how many of them have any real experience with languages like C++, Java, C#, Scheme, Haskell and Erlang? It's easy to find JavaScript developers who love JavaScript solely because it's the only language they know. But once you start dealing with JavaScript developers who have a wider understanding of what various programming languages offer, the problems with JavaScript become much more obvious,…

I think Anders Hejlsberg knows a few other languages.

Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#306

Post by PommeDeTerre »

marshray wrote: post #305
PommeDeTerre wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of these developers, how many of them have any real experience with languages like C++, Java, C#, Scheme, Haskell and Erlang? It's easy to find JavaScript developers who love JavaScript solely because it's the only language they know. But once you start dealing with JavaScript developers who have a wider understanding of what various programming languages offer, the problems with JavaScript become much more obvious,…

I think Anders Hejlsberg knows a few other languages.

Yes, indeed. That's why we're finally seeing some sensibility being brought to JavaScript. He's bringing in basic features and functionality that should have been included 17 years ago, back when JavaScript was first developed.

Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#307

Post by jdmichal »

oinksoft wrote: post #171
JimmaDaRustla wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an open-source iniative - great ideas like this are best seeded and grown through a great community effort. You sound like you want to be given the whole tree.

I'll grant you that; I expect a more impressive release from a company like Microsoft. Why is there so much work put into the website when the tool and its documentation are sorely lacking?

This isn't an official release, it's a preview...

Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#308

Post by BrendanEich »

dmorgan wrote: post #302
BrendanEich wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, spec finalization follows shipping. First, Firefox and Chrome (under a flag, to be removed) already ship great pieces of ES6. JSC (Safari) and IE prototypes coming too. This is necessary to test interop and design soundness. Second, we don't do "Design by Committee", we use the "Champions" model where 1 or 2 people design a proposal and a larger number beat it into consensus shape without "redesign". Nothing's…

Wow. Didn't expect a reply from "THE Eich" itself. Honoured. > Nope, spec finalization follows shipping. Still, shipping ES6 is also scaled back at this time, and it requires special flags and hoops to be enabled. This means actual mainstream use (the way we know use HTML5, IE7 be damned) will be possible 2-3 years in the future at the minimum, which would be like 6-7 years from the beginning of the whole process. Th…

Device turnover on mobile is 2-3 years. Things are picking up with more balanced competition and the rise of mobile to dwarf desktop.

You can't get an interoperable spec of a new edition of a language the size of JS in less than three years, for any such language. Not for Dart (which is still changing and by Google's own plans nowhere near ready to standardize) or TypeScript (also new, and tracking ES6). Java, C#, Python, Ruby, etc. were built to today's state over years or decades.

Bite-sized specs are much better. Small libraries on github and universal edge-caching, even better. Could we have bite-sized specs for JS?

As I speculated at Strange Loop last week, with a few final gaps in the language filled (Object.observe, slated for ES7, weak refs and event loops, and definitely macros! see http://sweetjs.org/) by a future JS standard, we will be "all but done".

Working away at this goal,

Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#309

Post by nkohari »

cek wrote: post #293
nkohari wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As meanguy pointed out, the Mono team lost Novell's backing -- arguably, they never had it in the first place. Xamarin is now focused entirely on mobile, to the detriment of the core CLR implementation and web. Not that I blame them in the least. I've been a huge fan of Miguel for years, and they're doing great things in the mobile space. I just can't in good conscience invest heavily in Mono knowing that it's essent…

Mono is now backed by Xamarin. They got something like 12M in VC funding this summer and appear to be on fire. From what I've seen, the future of cross platform .NET looks great.

Xamarin is awesome, and what they're doing seems great. They've just entirely shifted their focus to mobile, which makes a lot of sense for them, but doesn't bode well for core Mono and their port of ASP.NET.

Re: TypeScript: a language for application-scale JavaScript development

#310

Post by BrendanEich »

dmorgan wrote: post #302
BrendanEich wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, spec finalization follows shipping. First, Firefox and Chrome (under a flag, to be removed) already ship great pieces of ES6. JSC (Safari) and IE prototypes coming too. This is necessary to test interop and design soundness. Second, we don't do "Design by Committee", we use the "Champions" model where 1 or 2 people design a proposal and a larger number beat it into consensus shape without "redesign". Nothing's…

Wow. Didn't expect a reply from "THE Eich" itself. Honoured. > Nope, spec finalization follows shipping. Still, shipping ES6 is also scaled back at this time, and it requires special flags and hoops to be enabled. This means actual mainstream use (the way we know use HTML5, IE7 be damned) will be possible 2-3 years in the future at the minimum, which would be like 6-7 years from the beginning of the whole process. Th…

(Was that a "Lensman" ref in your first line? ;-)
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