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Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

moonshotai.github.io

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Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#301

Post by kachapopopow »

gradus_ad wrote: post #265

While I absolutely support these open source models, there is an interesting angle to consider... If I were a Chinese partisan looking to inflict a devastating blow to the US, taking the AI hype wind out of American tech valuation sails would seem a great option. How best to do this? Release highly performant models... For free! Extremely efficient in terms of RMB spent vs (unrealized) USD lost. But surely, these mod…

the goverment might be (relatively speaking) evil, the people are most definitely not.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#302

Post by h33t-l4x0r »

a-dub wrote: post #279
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of open source in software is as you say. It's just not the same thing though. Using words and phrases differently in different fields is common.

...and my point is that it should be. the practice of science itself would be far stronger if it took more pages from open source software culture.

I agree that they should say "open weight" instead of "open source" when that's what they mean, but it might take some time for people to understand that it's not the same thing exactly and we should allow some slack for that.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#303

Post by ACCount37 »

Gracana wrote: post #170
unleaded wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you mean by "heavily structured output"? i find it generates the most natural-sounding output of any of the LLMs—cuts straight to the answer with natural sounding prose (except when sometimes it decides to use chat-gpt style output with its emoji headings for no reason). I've only used it on kimi.com though, wondering what you're seeing.

Yeah, by "structured" I mean how it wants to do ChatGPT-style output with headings and emoji and lists and stuff. And the punchy style of K2 0905 as shown in the fiction example in the linked article is what I really dislike. K2 Thinking's output in that example seems a lot more natural. I'd be totally on board if cut straight to the answer with natural sounding prose, as you described, but for whatever reason that h…

From what I've heard, Kimi K2 0905 was a major downgrade for writing.

So, when you hear people recommend Kimi K2 for writing, it's likely that they recommend the first release, 0711, and not the 0905 update.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#304

Post by simonw »

riku_iki wrote: post #289
simonw wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just one example: if you know the training data used for a model you can prompt it in a way that can expose whether or not that training data was used. The NYT used tricks like this as part of their lawsuit against OpenAI: page 30 onwards of https://nytco-assets.nytimes.com/2023/12/NYT_Complaint_Dec20...

You either don't know which training data was used for say chatgpt oss, or training data can be included into some open dataset like pile or similar. I think this test is very unreliable, and even if someone come to such conclusion, not clear what is the value of such conclusion, and if that someone can be trusted.

My intuition tells me it is vanishingly unlikely that any of the major AI labs - including the Chinese ones - have fine-tuned someone else's model and claimed that they trained it from scratch and got away with it.

Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I've never heard any of the AI training experts (and they're a talkative bunch) raise that as a suspicion.

There have been allegations of distillation - where models are partially trained on output from other models, eg using OpenAI models to generate training data for DeepSeek. That's not the same as starting with open model weights and training on those - until recently (gpt-oss) OpenAI didn't release their model weights.

I don't think OpenAI ever released evidence that DeepSeek had distilled from their models, that story seemed to fizzle out. It got a mention in a congressional investigation though: https://cyberscoop.com/deepseek-house-ccp-committee-report-n...

> An unnamed OpenAI executive is quoted in a letter to the committee, claiming that an internal review found that “DeepSeek employees circumvented guardrails in OpenAI’s models to extract reasoning outputs, which can be used in a technique known as ‘distillation’ to accelerate the development of advanced model reasoning capabilities at a lower cost.”

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#305

Post by DeH40 »

mullingitover wrote: post #280
thesmtsolver wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. Part of the reason China produces more power (and pollution) is due to China manufacturing for the US. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-do-china-and-america-... The source for China's energy is more fragile than that of the US. > Coal is by far China’s largest energy source, while the United States has a more balanced energy system, running on roughly one-third oil, one-third natural gas, and one-thir…

These stories are from 2021. China has been adding something like a 1GW coal plant’s worth of solar generation every eight hours in the past year, and the rate is accelerating. The US is no longer a serious competitor for China when it comes to energy production.

The reason it happened in 2021, I think, might be that China took on the production capacity gap caused by COVID shutdowns in other parts of the world. The short-term surge in production led to a temporary imbalance in the supply and demand of electricity

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#306

Post by speedgoose »

embedding-shape wrote: post #103
speedgoose wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To misquote the French president, "Who could have predicted?". https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qui_aurait_pu_pr%C3%A9dire

He didn't coin that expression did he? I'm 99% sure I've heard people say that before 2022, but now you made me unsure.

People said it before, but he said it without sarcasm about things that many people could in fact predict.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#307

Post by yanhangyhy »

thesmtsolver wrote: post #274
MallocVoidstar wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we’re going to see is as energy becomes a problem This is much more likely to be an issue in the US than in China. https://fortune.com/2025/08/14/data-centers-china-grid-us-in...

Disagree. Part of the reason China produces more power (and pollution) is due to China manufacturing for the US. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-do-china-and-america-... The source for China's energy is more fragile than that of the US. > Coal is by far China’s largest energy source, while the United States has a more balanced energy system, running on roughly one-third oil, one-third natural gas, and one-thir…

I don’t remeber much details about the situation in 2021. But China is in a period of technological explosion—many things are changing at an incredible speed. In just a few years, China may have completely transformed in various fields.

Western media still carry strong biases toward China’s political system, and they have done far too little to portray the country’s real situation. The narrative remains the same old one: “China succeeded because it’s capitalist,” or “China is doomed because it’s communist.”

But in reality, barely a few days go by without some new technological breakthrough or innovation happening in China. The pace of progress is so fast that even people inside the country don’t always keep up with it. For example, just since the start of November, we’ve seen China’s space station crew doing a barbecue in orbit, researchers in Hefei working on an artificial sun make some new progress, and a team discovering a safe and efficient method for preparing aromatic amines. Apart from the space station bit—which got some attention—the others barely made a ripple.Also, China's first electromagnetic catapult aircraft carrier has officially entered service

about a year ago, I started using Reddit intensively. what I read more on Reddit are reports related to electricity, because it involves environmental protection and hatred towards Trump, etc. There are too many leftists, so the discussions are somewhat biased. But the related news reports and nuclear data are real. China reach carbon peak in 2025, and this year it has truly become a powerhouse in electricity. National data centers are continuously being built, but residential electricity prices have never been and will never be affected.China still has a lot of coal-fired power, but it continues to carry out technological upgrades on them. At the same time, wind, solar, nuclear and other sources are all advancing steadily. China is the only country that is not controlled by ideology and is increasing its electricity capacity in a scientific way.

(maybe in AI field people like to talk about more. not only kimi release a new model, Xpeng has a new robot and brought some intension. these all happends in a few days )

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#308

Post by onion2k »

thesmtsolver wrote: post #274
MallocVoidstar wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we’re going to see is as energy becomes a problem This is much more likely to be an issue in the US than in China. https://fortune.com/2025/08/14/data-centers-china-grid-us-in...

Disagree. Part of the reason China produces more power (and pollution) is due to China manufacturing for the US. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-do-china-and-america-... The source for China's energy is more fragile than that of the US. > Coal is by far China’s largest energy source, while the United States has a more balanced energy system, running on roughly one-third oil, one-third natural gas, and one-thir…

art of the reason China produces more power (and pollution) is due to China manufacturing for the US.

Presumably they'd stop doing that once AI becomes a more beneficial use for the energy though.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#309

Post by simonw »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #291
simonw wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to be sure because the source of that information isn't known, but generally when people talk about training costs like this they include more than just the electricity but exclude staffing costs. Other reported training costs tend to include rental of the cloud hardware (or equivalent if the hardware is owned by the company), e.g. NVIDIA H100s are sometimes priced out in cost-per-hour.

Citation needed on "generally when people talk about training costs like this they include more than just the electricity but exclude staffing costs". It would be simply wrong to exclude the staffing costs. When each engineer costs well over 1 million USD in total costs year over year, you sure as hell account for them.

If you have 1,000 researchers working for your company and you constantly have dozens of different training runs in the go, overlapping each other, how would you split those salaries between those different runs?

Calculating the cost in terms of GPU-hours is a whole lot easier from an accounting perspective.

The papers I've seen that talk about training cost all do it in terms of GPU hours. The gpt-oss model card said 2.1 million H100-hours for gpt-oss:120b. The Llama 2 paper said 3.31M GPU-hours on A100-80G. They rarely give actual dollar costs and I've never seen any of them include staffing hours.

Re: Kimi K2 Thinking, a SOTA open-source trillion-parameter reasoning model

#310

Post by lukan »

jiggawatts wrote: post #230
lukan wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is, people and animals have a body, nerve system and in general those mushy things we think are responsible for emotions. Computers don't have any of that. And LLM's in particular neither. They were trained to simulate human text responses, that's all. How to get from there to emotions - where is the connection?

Don't confuse the medium with the picture it represents. Porn is pornographic, whether it is a photo or an oil painting. Feelings are feelings, whether they're felt by a squishy meat brain or a perfect atom-by-atom simulation of one in a computer. Or a less-than-perfect simulation of one. Or just a vaguely similar system that is largely indistinguishable from it, as observed from the outside. Individual nerve cells d…

Do you think a simulation of a weather forcast is the same as the real weather?

(And science fiction .. is not necessarily science)

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