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ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

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Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#301

Post by boston_clone »

hackingonempty wrote: post #163
boston_clone wrote: post #71

All, I recommend you familiarize yourself with relevant state laws regarding your protections when assisting folks that are in immediate danger, e.g.: https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_161.200 I'm not a lawyer. So, if you have counsel on retainer and can stomach the bill, get clarity there first. But know that many states have such protections on the books. The veil of immunity for DHS agents may soon be pierced…

You can be arrested and charged with a federal criminal law, 18 USC 111 "assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers or employees." The judge wont entertain your arguments about state law. Fines and up to 8 years in a federal prison, 20 years if you use a deadly or dangerous weapon or actually inflict injury. You can get up to 15% off for good behavior, there is no parole.

would a case like that go to a grand jury allowing for nullification to be on the table?

Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#302

Post by shostack »

crypto420 wrote: post #158
oceansky wrote: post #2

I wonder who is storing this data, I would bet Palantir. Possibly Oracle too.

Not Palantir. Their CEO has explicitly said that they don't collect data on US citizens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-IH7EVrBbQ

Do they partner with Clearview or Flock or anyone else? "Collect" seems like a weasel word that still leaves lots of options on the table.

Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#303

Post by boston_clone »

HaZeust wrote: post #171
boston_clone wrote: post #71

All, I recommend you familiarize yourself with relevant state laws regarding your protections when assisting folks that are in immediate danger, e.g.: https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_161.200 I'm not a lawyer. So, if you have counsel on retainer and can stomach the bill, get clarity there first. But know that many states have such protections on the books. The veil of immunity for DHS agents may soon be pierced…

Sort of. You have to look up if your state has "necessity/choice-of-evils” defense and the standard defense-of-others rule - and what scopes it has. I'll tell you this much, most judges will regard a circumstance for you to exert force against a peace officer - seeming or actual - as an extralegal action, and will very rarely affirm it as a protected action from the books. And even if you beat such a case, it ruins y…

I asked a similar question elsewhere, but in states like Texas you can have a jury trial for just about any offense. Could federal charges go before a grand jury allowing nullification to be an option?

Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#304

Post by throw0101c »

JohnFen wrote: post #180
throw0101c wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. While pithy, public intellectual/academic conservatives like David Frum and Tom Nichols would disagree, and say the rule of law should apply equally to everyone. Frum (IIRC, though it may have been Applebaum) wrote articles years ago…

This. There's exactly nothing conservative about MAGA. Quite the opposite, it's overtly and proudly radical and extremist, and views actual conservative values with as much contempt as it views actual liberal values.

> There's exactly nothing conservative about MAGA.

Just look at the recent brouhaha about Ontario's televsion ad using Reagan's words against tariffs and the reaction it caused.

Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#305

Post by mindslight »

JohnFen wrote: post #128
tootie wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely insane that the party who tried on the Libertarian mask less than 20 years ago and rode high on a wave of "don't tread on me" individual liberty is now suddenly ok with masked thugs scanning everyone's faces for their master database of enemies of the state.

The generous part of me says this is an example of "you become what you hate". The ungenerous part of me says that all their talk about freedom, liberty, state's rights, etc., has always been a lie.

As a libertarian, I had given Republicans the benefit of the doubt figuring they earnestly wanted freedom, but were just terrible at understanding the details of how their freedom gets taken away. But I still had figured that conservatism actually meant something - trusting institutions / "the system", believing America is a force for good in the world, slow measured change, etc.

But the point we've arrived at, with so many of them complicit in these wanton attacks on our freedoms and our society, it's hard to see that there are any sort of ideals or values behind their party. People are going about their days, getting accosted by unaccountable masked gangs, having their face scanned, then getting sent to a concentration camp when some buggy app claims they aren't a citizen? How can one possibly look at that and think anything but "this could easily happen to me or my family" ?

The only answer I've been able to come up with is that it is straight up racism. They believe they could never possibly be on the pointy end of this fascist dystopia, because they look "American" (ie white), and so would never possibly be scanned in the first place? I earnestly hate this "racism everywhere" chant the Democratic party has fallen into for the past decade. But I'm having a real hard time finding any other explanation, so I'm reluctantly coming around to that. Someone please convince me I am wrong.

Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#306

Post by parineum »

willis936 wrote: post #127
tootie wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely insane that the party who tried on the Libertarian mask less than 20 years ago and rode high on a wave of "don't tread on me" individual liberty is now suddenly ok with masked thugs scanning everyone's faces for their master database of enemies of the state.

It makes more sense when you frame it as "party of shameless self interest and racial stratification acts in shameless self interest while racially stratifying". You can draw a straight line back to even before the US civil war of the anti-federalists using their station to undermine the republic and liberties it stands for.

Frankly, I don't think this is a party thing. Our elected officials are mostly party line. There are a few who have actual ideals that they adhere to but the rest of them are weather vanes.

You basically have to be a party loyalist to get campaign funds so, unless you can self fund, you gotta toe the line.

Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#307

Post by Tostino »

cozzyd wrote: post #294
Animats wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't happen. A frantic appeal by the Administration to the 7th circuit court of appeals postponed it.

The frustrating thing is the judge originally requested 1630 but then acquiesced to 1800.

The legislative just love getting slapped in the face by the executive. Repeatedly.

Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#308

Post by krapp »

nobody9999 wrote: post #293
krapp wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People voted for a bait and switch. There was no "bait and switch." Nothing Trump is doing now should be a surprise to anyone who paid attention to him or the Trumpist movement over the last decade. >If we give them room to say “this isn’t what wanted” we give them room to say “next time I want something different.” The problem is, this is exactly what many of them wanted, and now they're just trying to cover their…

>The problem is, this is exactly what many of them wanted, and now they're just trying to cover their ass because the revolution didn't work out the way they expected. That's as may be, but if you give these folks the room to act differently next time, at least some of them will. Which might well be enough to turn the tide in the next elections. As such, writing off everyone who didn't support exactly what you suppor…

>As such, writing off everyone who didn't support exactly what you support as a racist, fascistic, bloodthirsty scumbag who should be put down isn't the best strategy.

I never did any such thing. I don't believe anyone should be put down for their beliefs, I'm not like them.

A lot of them are racist, fascistic, bloodthirsty scumbags. That isn't even controversial, a lot of them will admit it openly.

>I'm incensed by what's been going on and I never supported Trump or his (now) hangers on. That said, I'm sure that you and I disagree about a bunch of things. Does that make me an unredeemably evil human being?

I never said anyone was an unredeemably evil human being. I just have no interest in their redemption.

>In fact, the vast majority of Americans agree about much more than they disagree. Your "othering" of folks is just as bad as those who "other" folks who believe what you do.

I'm not "othering" anyone, I'm expressing skepticism about the motivations behind the stated regrets of some Trump supporters and the narrative that they "never voted for this."

>Rather it's a "your fellow Americans are humans too and mostly want the same things. Why don't we agree on those things and work to come to amicable resolutions where possible?" kind of argument.

Because many of my fellow Americans want masked, armed troops in the streets kidnapping brown people. They want the government to police "degenerate" art and erase "woke" ideology. They want to send trans kids to mandatory conversion camps. They want to normalize Christian nationalism and fascism. They want to tear down science and medicine and replace it with conspiracy theories and nonsense.

If I'm not talking about you, I'm not talking about you. But I am talking about a lot of people.

If Trump supporters want to reconsider supporting him and his agenda, great. It's a little late, but I guess late is better than never. I'm not stopping them from acting differently, I'm just a guy trying to survive here. No one is stopping them. I don't need to "make room" for them - they're the most politically and culturally powerful demographic in existence. If they want something different next time - assuming there is a next time, they can just vote for it. They believe in the will to power don't they?

But I'm under no obligation to forgive and forget when the brownshirts are in the streets.

Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#309

Post by cozzyd »

Tostino wrote: post #307
cozzyd wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The frustrating thing is the judge originally requested 1630 but then acquiesced to 1800.

The legislative just love getting slapped in the face by the executive. Repeatedly.

In this case, this is a federal judge.

Re: ICE and CBP agents are scanning faces on the street to verify citizenship

#310

Post by kragen »

tracker1 wrote: post #255
troyvit wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's like saying it's ironic for soldiers to fire their guns while in a trench. ICE using military tactics (be it trenches or masks) is the real problem here. ICE aren't soldiers, they're a part of law enforcement. Unfortunately in the U.S. today we not only do use troops for law enforcement, but we're using law enforcement as troops. Neither is the correct role for those services.

Fortunately, the National Guard members have better training than most law enforcement on how to properly interact with civilians (the public).

They're trained how to kill them, and not to do so without orders.
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