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Computer science courses that don't exist, but should (2015)

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Re: Computer science courses that don't exist, but should (2015)

#301

Post by tsumnia »

jayd16 wrote: post #232
kj4211cash wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen this. Is this some weird right wing talking point? I have seen a disconnect between what is covered in ethics classes and the types of scenarios students will encounter in the working world. My (one) ethics class was useless. But not political even with the redrawn ethical map of the Trump era.

Building systems that don't bake bias into code or worrying about privacy in a dating app is probably the kind of politics the parent is talking about. I'm not really sure how you could totally separate politics (forming laws) from ethics anyway.

I linked my lecture about how I see "ethics" as another term for "politics" in the academic sense.

Other points to note: All AI will always have bias; a) because neural networks literally have a constant called 'bias' in them; and b) training a prediction algorithm means it is being trained to be bias and running a clustering algorithm means lumping commonly themed attributes together.

If you mean "BIAS" as in "RACE/ETHNICITY/SOCIOECONOMIC_STATUS", then most groups already do this, state they do it, and still deal with the general public not believing them.

Re: Computer science courses that don't exist, but should (2015)

#302

Post by ChicagoDave »

markus_zhang wrote: post #298
ChicagoDave wrote: post #110

I could add so much to this page. - COBOL on punch cards - RPG II/III - PDP/Vax Shared Memory Modules - Hierarchical Data File Storage - Recursive Expression Evaluator - Batch Processing large datasets - Compressed dates and numbers So many of these teach you structural complexity that you’d never learn in today’s world.

Just curious what is special about PDP/Vax Shared Memory Modules? I know Win NT is basically the child of VMS and David Cutler worked on PDP before VAX, so maybe this is the reason?

You had to map out how modules would swap in and out of memory, so they had to be encapsulated modules. At least for the PDP you didn't have relational data stores so all data was in hierarchical data files (each record had a parent-child indicator, so you might read an 'M' record, then many 'D' records). You certainly could not load all of the data into memory even one set of M+D+sub records might blow out your limits.

You had to carefully think through how your code worked at a molecular level always banging up against a memory wall.

Re: Computer science courses that don't exist, but should (2015)

#303

Post by ChicagoDave »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #302
markus_zhang wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious what is special about PDP/Vax Shared Memory Modules? I know Win NT is basically the child of VMS and David Cutler worked on PDP before VAX, so maybe this is the reason?

You had to map out how modules would swap in and out of memory, so they had to be encapsulated modules. At least for the PDP you didn't have relational data stores so all data was in hierarchical data files (each record had a parent-child indicator, so you might read an 'M' record, then many 'D' records). You certainly could not load all of the data into memory even one set of M+D+sub records might blow out your limi…

This is what data prior to SQL Server and Oracle looked like:

**************************************

* MEDICAL INSURANCE CLAIMS HIERARCHICAL FILE - CIRCA 1982 *

* RECORD TYPES: H=HOSPITAL(MASTER) P=PATIENT D=DIAGNOSIS C=CLAIM DETAIL *

**************************************

H001MEMORIAL GENERAL HOSPITAL 19820415NEW YORK NY10001212555010001520000

P001001JOHNSON ROBERT M19450312001234567819820102BCBS

D001001001HYPERTENSION 401.9 19820102

D001001002DIABETES TYPE 2 250.00 19820102

C00100100119820102OV0992001200120

C00100100219820102LAB8100305003050

C00100100319820102RX1150002500250

P001002SMITH MARY F19580624002345678919820115AETNA

D001002001PNEUMONIA 486 19820115

C00100200119820115ER0992505002500

C00100200219820115XR7100108001080

C00100200319820115RX1150012501250

Re: Computer science courses that don't exist, but should (2015)

#304

Post by markus_zhang »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #302
markus_zhang wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious what is special about PDP/Vax Shared Memory Modules? I know Win NT is basically the child of VMS and David Cutler worked on PDP before VAX, so maybe this is the reason?

You had to map out how modules would swap in and out of memory, so they had to be encapsulated modules. At least for the PDP you didn't have relational data stores so all data was in hierarchical data files (each record had a parent-child indicator, so you might read an 'M' record, then many 'D' records). You certainly could not load all of the data into memory even one set of M+D+sub records might blow out your limi…

Thanks Dave. Guess db back then is very different.

Re: Computer science courses that don't exist, but should (2015)

#305

Post by tsumnia »

tsumnia wrote: post #301
jayd16 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building systems that don't bake bias into code or worrying about privacy in a dating app is probably the kind of politics the parent is talking about. I'm not really sure how you could totally separate politics (forming laws) from ethics anyway.

I linked my lecture about how I see "ethics" as another term for "politics" in the academic sense. Other points to note: All AI will always have bias; a) because neural networks literally have a constant called 'bias' in them; and b) training a prediction algorithm means it is being trained to be bias and running a clustering algorithm means lumping commonly themed attributes together. If you mean "BIAS" as in "RACE/…

Reread my last sentence - allow me to rephrase it:

If you mean "BIAS" as in avoiding "RACE/ETHNICITY/SOCIOECONOMIC_STATUS", most groups state they do not use them for decision making and still deal with the "general public" not believing them because results do not support their opinions.

Re: Computer science courses that don't exist, but should (2015)

#306

Post by AmeliaMN »

daninus14 wrote: post #296
AmeliaMN wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a graduate student at UCLA, I signed up for a CS course that turned out to secretly be "the Alan Kay show." He showed up every week and lectured about computer science history. Didn't learn much about programming language design that semester (what the course ostensibly was) but it was one of my most formative experiences.

This sounds amazing. Any chance there are videos of that course available?

Sadly, no. I think he used to do it every couple of years (the course was never listed with him as the faculty member to avoid over-enrollment) but I might have been in one of the last classes he did. As far as I know, he hasn't done it since the pandemic started.

Re: Computer science courses that don't exist, but should (2015)

#307

Post by ChicagoDave »

markus_zhang wrote: post #304
ChicagoDave wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had to map out how modules would swap in and out of memory, so they had to be encapsulated modules. At least for the PDP you didn't have relational data stores so all data was in hierarchical data files (each record had a parent-child indicator, so you might read an 'M' record, then many 'D' records). You certainly could not load all of the data into memory even one set of M+D+sub records might blow out your limi…

Thanks Dave. Guess db back then is very different.

To clarify, that's a text file. We ran batch programs overnight to process claims and create billing reports (this is fake data, but I consulted on insurance and legal systems back in the mid-eighties).

That batch program was modular and would run several "passes" over the file (sequentially) to do varying types of work (create new data, create reports). These programs could also change a record if they needed to. A claims record might have a status indicator like "submitted" (S), "billed" (B), "denied" (D), "paid" (P).

Everyone that writes code today works on the shoulders of such systems and some of these systems still exist (social security, hotel reservations, flight scheduling, banking, insurance) all original designed by IBM. Most of these have Java and DB2 layers on top of them now, but the underlying data is in many cases still there.

The modularization was because 32mb that had to be split up to handle varying functionality (procedural BASIC or C). There would be a MAIN module, then any number of sub-modules and you'd describe how they would swap in and out as needed. (See PDP-11/RSTS-E Task Builder).

Relational databases were magic when we started using them in the early nineties. NOSql databases are also magic. Graph databases are pure wizardry.

Re: Computer science courses that don't exist, but should (2015)

#308

Post by ricksunny »

AfterHIA wrote: post #90
corysama wrote: post #10

> CSCI 3300: Classical Software Studies Alan Kay, my favorite curmudgeon, spent decades trying to remind us we keep reinventing concepts that were worked out in the late 70s and he’s disappointed we’ve been running in circles ever since. He’s still disappointed because very few programmers are ever introduced to the history of computer science in the way that artists study the history of art or philosophers the histo…

I can't concur enough. We don't teach, "how to design computers and better methods to interface with them" we keep hashing over the same stuff over and over again. It gets worse over time and the effect is that what Engelbart called, "intelligence augmenters" become, "super televisions that cause you political and social angst." How far we have fallen but so great the the reward if we could, "lift ourselves up again.…

Hey - tried to reply this to the earlier thread on Mansfield, but evidently there's a timeout on reply-to's. Anyway appreciated your response (my not responding is often just me contemplating..:) ) Grokipedia found this on Mansfield which I've found is adding additional context about Mansfield's motiviations: https://doi.org/10.1126/science.169.3943.356 (can read in sci-hub) . The Vietnam war thematic background was helpful - Google Gemini agreed with you and the Grokipedia article seems to add support to it as well, (though not directly tying to Sen. Mansfield's motivations).

It's funny, my impression had been that Mansfield was legislating from a heavily right-wing standpoint, of 'Why are we tax-and-spending into something that won't help protect the sanctity of my private property?" I was pleased to see the motivations were different. The fact that so few have articulated why the invoke Mansfield underscores why I was able to adopt such an orthogonal interpretation of Mansfield's amendment prior to this discussion. All the best AfterHIA. -ricksunny

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