Live data from Hacker News

Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

301–310 of 369 posts

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 2010s, we had a similar situation but it wasn’t illegal. I used to work for a large drug distributor both pre and during the opioid epidemic. At the time (pre-SUPPORT Act), distributors weren’t required to notify the DEA about anomalous ordering so we didn’t provide data to law enforcement unless they sent a subpoena. To increase profits, we identified our best customers of opioids and updated our inventory tr…

How do you live with yourself?

I guess in the same way as people working for MS, Google, FB, Palantir and other genocide enjoyers.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the more people that buy into that, the worse it gets. That’s why this has to be fought tooth and nail from day one.

If you want to fight corruption and unethical behaviour, start with a just society that doesn't tie a person's value and well-being directly to their income. Otherwise you're fighting incentives and will never win.

You don’t get to a just society by not fighting corruption. Ask yourself not what “engineers globally” can do, but what you can do. Historically, pressure from the educated middle class has made huge impacts on culture and society.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#303
post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

Seems to be a trend of Women (especially the 30 under 30) in tech being especially fraudy.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

Punishment should match the crime, to both rehabilitate and be preventative. White collar crime gets basically no punishment, and looking at career of those people they usually end up falling upwards. For such cases banning them from being in a management position for X years would be a nice discouragement.

Without punishment, there’s not much incentive for rehabilitation. Why stop/change/repent instead of just continuing?

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#305
While not explicitly illegal, I was building out part of a product for an international company with a massive userbase (hundreds of millions) and discovered a slight issue: their api required no authentication, had no rate limiting, and an easily discoverable request format. Anyone could make a simple request with a handful of digits and get a complete history of that product, revealing very intimate details about the users in every aspect of their lives.

I don't get nervous easily but it made my stomach turn, my palms started sweating. I told my boss, we told our boss, who went and pulled the CEO out of a meeting. I was given signed documentation on company letterhead that stated I raised the issue and also detailed how our company had informed the customer, along with a modest cash bonus and they bought me most of the furniture in my house (no taxes!)

The company came back to us and said "we know, we built it like that on purpose". Incredulous but reassured that both myself and my employer were not facing any liability, I finished the product and it shipped. Predictably this was exploited within a few years and made national news when it was used against prominent political figures.

There are still no legal mechanisms in place to enforce any kind of security for this class of product.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#306

While not explicitly illegal, I was building out part of a product for an international company with a massive userbase (hundreds of millions) and discovered a slight issue: their api required no authentication, had no rate limiting, and an easily discoverable request format. Anyone could make a simple request with a handful of digits and get a complete history of that product, revealing very intimate details about t…

Sounds like from a legal perspective, everyone covered their bases.

I take it you are an Oak man, then ? [Harvey Keitel voice]

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#307
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

Well, that's nice that you feel that way. But, you don't get to decide what people "deserve" or what "should" happen.

I happen to disagree. I think these crimes (and many others) should follow you more or less permanently.

My opinions on what "should" be the case have just as much validity as yours.

Please be self aware when you are making baseless moral claims.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but having their families profit from the money earnt via these evil actions doesn't seem fair either.

We already have long-established legal precedent for dealing with such issues and much more. It can actually get quite complicated - which is why we defer to the experts and move slowly on such subjects.

>We already have long-established legal precedent for dealing with such issues and much more.

We really don't in reality. The manner in which even the existing laws are enforced leaves a lot to be desired.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#309
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

Yeah no, sociopathy isn’t something that ever goes away after someone becomes her age.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#310
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Na, just ban all of them and all their families from ever having health insurance again so they can suffer the same fate they doomed others too intentionally . Make an example and all that.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

Is it really counter-productive, though?

Propensity to do harm through crime, violence, etc. is largely a genetic attribute.

Take a violent drug lord for example. Do you really want a woman capable of loving him allowed to continue on as if nothing happened?

Post reply on HN