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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#301

Post by derelicta »

ptero wrote: post #38
dsign wrote: post #11

I think the surveillance state is gonna stay; we have been slipping into it just so and every electronic system out there wants to spy on us, beginning with our Windows and Mac computers and even the Sonos speaker. Small mystery that police forces want their slice of pie so badly. Freedom of expression has been of a limited nature already for some years (just cast Israel in a bad light in USA and see what happens). W…

Freedom of speech is doing not great, but still OK in the US. The government is not prosecuting for speech, which is what the free speech protections can and should guarantee. What now happens more is that big private companies, having huge influence on individual life in everything from communication to banking, attack people for their views. The cure for it might be to ease and speed up the way for people to push b…

Tell that to anti-genocide activists who get deported for saying things like "Killing children is wrong" or "Maybe we shouldnt export guns to a Pedo-State"

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#302

Post by zx10rse »

Aloisius wrote: post #286
yeahforsureman wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that if this passes, the EU Court of Justice will eventually find it more or less in violation with EU fundamental rights. That will take time, though, so I guess they are either hoping that some impossibly secure, reliable and unerring technologies emerge in the meantime, or they are prepared for a forever battle with the Court, coming up with ever new adjustments as soon as previous schemes get stru…

I've looked at the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and don't see why this would violate it. Both the right to privacy and the right to protection of personal data have exemptions for government. The right to private communications was modified by the ECHR to give an exemption for prevention of crime/protection of morals/etc.[1] and the right to protection of personal data exempts any legitimate basis laid down by la…

If you don't see it, it doesn't mean that it is not braking it.

They themselves even wrote it in the proposal - "Whilst different in nature and generally speaking less intrusive, the newly created power to issue removal orders in respect of known child sexual abuse material certainly also affects fundamental rights, most notably those of the users concerned relating to freedom of expression and information."

This proposal is de facto a mass communication surveillance of EU citizens.

Exactly as you mentioned every single member state and EU have laws that can for example issues a court order and seize your communication devices if you are braking a law for an investigation, there is no need for EU to have a law that first goes against the very essence of EU, second it also brakes I am pretty sure every single constitution of each different member states.

If this law passes you live in a totalitarian state and there is no excuse for that.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#303

Post by gpderetta »

kelnos wrote: post #296
waxyalan wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 69% of people supporting the Online Safety Act [1] I'm confident there are people in the UK that would also support Chat Control [1] https://yougov.co.uk/technology/articles/52693-how-have-brit...

Sure, when you frame the question as, "do you support these measures to ensure children don't have access to pornography?", of course people are going to support it. Present evidence that the new laws will be a danger to their fundamental rights and maybe you won't get quite as much support. Also, that survey shows that there's broad support even though the same people don't believe the new laws will be effective. So…

In the meantime we get VPN adverts in the tube.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#304

Post by psychoslave »

coretx wrote: post #285
graemep wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The next thing is, do they know how to rely efficiently on a diverse panel of expert, or do they take only yes-man/lobby-funded experts around them? Unfortunately, I know the answer to that! > The problem is not they ask experts I think with with IT they do realise that they do not know. They also believe someone who says something is feasible, or a good solution over someone who says it is not.

> I think with with IT they do realise that they do not know. We are no longer living in the 2000's. They know. Many are simply evil or have competing interests and want to loose their income/career. Regarding your parent, "direct democracy" is a euphemism for mob rule.

>Regarding your parent, "direct democracy" is a euphemism for mob rule.

Anything that pretend to be democracy without imposing active participation of citizen in ruling is an euphemism for some other system which doesn’t dare to present itself for what it is.

Oligarchy is not democracy. Aristocracy is not democracy.

Assimilating the only actual form of democracy to its degenerated ochlocratic form, and pretending that whatever undemocratic political regime that officially brand itself as democratic is so: thus are the two basic strategy of newspeak control. War is peace.

Yes there is a risk with actual democracy. The full truth however is that there are risks of degeneration with any political system. Pseudo-representative systems used in western side have by far cross the threshold of mere theoretical possibility to degenerate into oligarchic plutocracies.

Moreover which caste brandishes the scarecrow of the hypothetical fickle crowd to evict actual democracy? And in support of which system, and what caste will it favor?

The nailing point of democracy is not that it’s perfect and immune of any big issue. The cardinal point of democracy is that people are promised the pains and joys they will self-provide for themselves; so the control feedback loop of changing their own behaviors and rules stay in their power.

# Related resources

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_rule

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#305

Post by Xelbair »

Jensson wrote: post #289
Xelbair wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, for now - it was always close. And they need to succeed only once. the issue is that they try to push it despite citizen protests, and each time they try people just grow more fatigued.

> yeah, for now - it was always close. And they need to succeed only once. What do you mean, this can just be reverted it isn't like these laws can't be changed. Currently most people don't vote in EU elections, so you don't need much to affect those even if just 10% hates this proposal and go out to vote it would massively effect the outcome. Therefore its much harder for unpopular things to persist at EU level than…

It is vastly harder to revert a law that entrenches whoever is in power.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#306

Post by singulasar »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #211
singulasar wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or maybe let's not? their actions are clearly not extremist, absolutely not perfect and not always equally democratic, but not extremist or violent like the actual extremists...

I do think the ambition to spy on all private communication to be quite extremist. Especially Germany should know better. If you build two autocratic dictatorships on average per century, maybe start to take care that state powers are restricted. The US is fully correct in its criticism of Germany regarding freedom of speech and house searches. Sure, on surveillance their arguments would be very weak... Absolutely no…

Again, I disagree, I wouldn't call it extremist. It's vile and wrong, but people all over the political spectrum are in favour of this. there's a difference between something being bad or self-serving, and something being extremist. Labelling everything as extremist does not help anyone, especially today when everyone is already highly divided.

No way I'm getting into the restrict state powers discussion as that is highly complex and not something that can properly be discussed on an internet forum.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#307

Post by raxxorraxor »

singulasar wrote: post #306
raxxorraxor wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think the ambition to spy on all private communication to be quite extremist. Especially Germany should know better. If you build two autocratic dictatorships on average per century, maybe start to take care that state powers are restricted. The US is fully correct in its criticism of Germany regarding freedom of speech and house searches. Sure, on surveillance their arguments would be very weak... Absolutely no…

Again, I disagree, I wouldn't call it extremist. It's vile and wrong, but people all over the political spectrum are in favour of this. there's a difference between something being bad or self-serving, and something being extremist. Labelling everything as extremist does not help anyone, especially today when everyone is already highly divided. No way I'm getting into the restrict state powers discussion as that is h…

I disagree, for me it is an extreme position that affects the lives of everyone because of diffuse security whims. At best, since the motivation could be entirely different.

We had that in Germany by extremist autocratic parties and these policies are quite a clear mirror.

"Scanning the communications of everyone" - Might want to let that go through your head again.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#308

Post by Kim_Bruning »

kelnos wrote: post #296
waxyalan wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 69% of people supporting the Online Safety Act [1] I'm confident there are people in the UK that would also support Chat Control [1] https://yougov.co.uk/technology/articles/52693-how-have-brit...

Sure, when you frame the question as, "do you support these measures to ensure children don't have access to pornography?", of course people are going to support it. Present evidence that the new laws will be a danger to their fundamental rights and maybe you won't get quite as much support. Also, that survey shows that there's broad support even though the same people don't believe the new laws will be effective. So…

It depends on how you word the survey. ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA (Yes Minster: the unofficial video on-boarding course for UK bureaucrats)

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#310

Post by singulasar »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #307
singulasar wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I disagree, I wouldn't call it extremist. It's vile and wrong, but people all over the political spectrum are in favour of this. there's a difference between something being bad or self-serving, and something being extremist. Labelling everything as extremist does not help anyone, especially today when everyone is already highly divided. No way I'm getting into the restrict state powers discussion as that is h…

I disagree, for me it is an extreme position that affects the lives of everyone because of diffuse security whims. At best, since the motivation could be entirely different. We had that in Germany by extremist autocratic parties and these policies are quite a clear mirror. "Scanning the communications of everyone" - Might want to let that go through your head again.

Hmm, sure, I can agree that the position is extremist, I still don't agree that 1 (or some) extremist positions makes the current people in power extremist. Or at least, maybe they are, but I think most of the alternatives are more extremist.

It's definitely a disgusting horrible proposal.

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