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Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

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Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#301

Post by joshcsimmons »

HanClinto wrote: post #148

When I was in Kolkata two and a half years ago, I saw a young man wearing a jacket with a slogan on the back. In large letters, it said "The more you LEARN, the more you EARN." That would be so out of place in midwest USA, where cynicism is rampant and young people believe they have no control over their own outcomes. I wish I had taken a picture of that jacket.

Midwest is particularly rough especially rust belt cities. I could already see the writing on the wall when I got out decades ago. Now the coasts feel like the Midwest did back then. A sense of "who cares?"

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#302

Post by komali2 »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #267
mcntsh wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument really breaks down when you consider that it requires a lot more training to become a teacher than an investment banker, and there is a massive shortage of teachers, and none of these factors makes teaching a lucrative career.

Becoming a teacher is far easier than successfully becoming an investment banker. Most people who try end up making teacher territory pay to push paper in a cubicle all day. And they don't even get summers off.

That's no necessarily true since teaching requires a degree and certification, at least in the USA. Also it's an extremely hard job compared to investment banking - the hours are long, you must take your work home, you're usually on your feet a significant portion of the day, and you must function as a social worker and a live performer for a significant portion of the day. Every single day for a term.

And the pressure is enormous, you're in charge of making sure the kids get the tools they need for their life, all while making sure they can survive the arbitrary stuff like standardized testing.

If it was so easy why is there a shortage?

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#303

Post by closewith »

TuringNYC wrote: post #207
sdenton4 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much all of the good stuff I've done in my life have resulted from going off the beaten path. AP courses and SAT scores are the core of the beaten path, so everyone is competing for the same stuff. But the world is big, actually, and there's incredible opportunities for meaningful work once you start looking around more broadly. These sorts of jobs aren't necessarily "stable" employment, but I've never once fe…

While I agree with you on everything, this doesnt really work for everyone 1. It requires a level of maturity and wisdom most recent graduates do not have (I certainly didn't have this when I graduated). Despite all my entrepreneurship courses in college, working at a dot-com startup, etc, I wouldn't have been able to do this out of college. 2. Not everyone is going to be enterprising. Historically, we've provided a…

So when did you graduate?

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#304

Post by computerthings »

the_snooze wrote: post #220
solardev wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's hiring even those people?

When I was an undergrad researcher back during the height of the Great Financial Crisis, I had a handful of internship and full-time offers at various national labs and similar orgs thanks to my supervisor tipping me off about those opportunities and making introductions on my behalf. When you participate in things beyond your classes, you get an "in" on certain paths unavailable to other folks. You're not any smarte…

[dead]

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#305

Post by vladms »

Izikiel43 wrote: post #198
vladms wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should avoid extreme inequality. We should talk distributions not "equality" vs "everything else".

I would change that to extreme poverty. There should be a guaranteed minimum standard of living which is humane, basically access to food, housing, education and health. After that, is up to every individual. I remember a previous discussion here about ozempic, and how one commenter was asking how to force his father to become healthy, as it was using ozempic as a crutch and leaning back to it when he needed to, whil…

While I would like that as well, I think inequality is easier to define than poverty (for inequality you can consider only wealth and income), easier to explain and easier to act on.

I think that even two like-minded people can spend too much time talking about what exactly is "basically access to food, housing, education and health", before doing anything.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#306

Post by Yizahi »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #210
orochimaaru wrote: post #51

Isn’t this a bit obvious? I mean I’ve known this since I started working in 1997. The first job you have generally shatters this illusion that job security and economic gains are tied to “hard work”. In the sense hard work is needed but only if you see if adding to what you consider a quality of life (which could be economic gain, generational wealth, bragging rights to a promotion, etc.). Each person has their crite…

The current American system is premised on people buying into this. If people don't there is no societal foundation which probably leads to societal change. It's like the one societal contract we have (had). Not society helps you, not society puts a roof on your head. Not we're in a society together, so when you get sick we help out. Purely just 'if you work hard, you will be rewarded, and the rewards will take care…

To show that this isn't exclusive to USA - I heard that in Japan nowadays workers can't rely on their megacorp to provide them predictable work position and can be fired regardless of their tenure. This is all after being told for decades that megacorp is literally their family and they should dedicate their whole time to it.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#307

Post by krapp »

moshun wrote: post #285
vondur wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ancient Greek politics were chaotic and violent, especially cities like Athens.

A couple of American politicians were executed in their homes a few months ago and one of the two presidential candidates was nearly JFKd in front of hundreds of cameras last year. A few years ago, a mob stormed the capital and erected a gallows to hang the sitting vice president if they could lay hands on him. That’s violent enough even if you don’t consider the fact that de facto martial law is about to descend on…

What you're describing are anomalies. Most Presidental candidates are not "nearly JFK'd" nor do mobs storm the Capitol with regularity. For all of its cultural pretensions of being a nation of armed patriots always ready to "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants" the US political system is for the most part incredibly stable and nonviolent. In ancient Greece, meanwhile, violent mobs, assassinations and tyranny were the norm rather than the exception.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasis_(ancient_Greece)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#308

Post by y0eswddl »

ponector wrote: post #274
Buttons840 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes are higher than capital gains taxes. This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country. We've chosen to reward those who move money around and trade capital more than we reward those who labor. And this at a time when, supposedly, the country is trying to increase its ability to build things. I thought this specific fact worth mentioning.

>> This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country Is it? I've heard that low capital gain taxes are better for long-term GDP growth.

You've also heard that giving billionaires more money would "trickle down" to the rest of us...

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#309

Post by j_w »

Buttons840 wrote: post #263
j_w wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue with "living wage" calculations is that they never compromise. I live in a county with great public transit. The living wage before taxes is listed as 61k for a single adult. Over 9k of that is allocated to transportation costs. Did I mention the great public transit? All of the buses are free. Internet + mobile is 1500? Well gigabit fiber + mint mobile would run you 1200/year, so where is the extra 300 comi…

You make some good points. I guess a "living wage" probably implies living an "normal" American life, which isn't maximally tightening the belt. Even with good public transportation, driving saves a lot of time. The extra $300 probably comes from a combination of needing to buy a new phone and new computer periodically, hidden taxes and fees, and also it's reasonable to expect a "normal" living wage to include enough…

The problem is that the "normal" American consumes greatly beyond their means. What I described isn't maximally tightening the belt, it's a very reasonable and satisfying way to live.

I don't have a car, I ride a bike, walk, or take public transit. In no way do I feel restricted in my daily life. I have a 6 year old iPhone that if you amortize would be $100/year (well under that extra 300).

A lot of Americans would consider no car and an old phone to be untenable. How would I get to work? You live closer to work. It's too expensive to live closer to work. Well is it once you get rid of your car(s)? There are genuinely going to be some areas of the country where this is not possible (living in proximity to work where a car is not needed). But those areas typically do not have a "cost of living crisis."

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#310

Post by hookahboy »

Jensson wrote: post #297
hookahboy wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how exactly does capital owe "future" taxes on gains or dividends based on inflation?

That capital gains is not adjusted for inflation, so if you buy something and it keeps its inflation adjusted value and then you sell it, you have to pay capital gains tax as if that inflation was your profits. As for risk, if you buy something, then you go bankrupt so you lose it all, the state doesn't pay you the negative capital gains tax from your losses. That is the risk part that workers never have to deal with…

yeah but wages are also taxed on nominal terms, not real terms.
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