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We put a coding agent in a while loop

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Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coding is how I build a sufficiently deep understanding of the problem space--there's no separating coding and understanding for me. I acknowledge there's different ways of working (and I imagine this is one of the reasons a lot of people think they get a lot more value out of LLMs than I do), but like, having Cursor crank code out for me actually slows me down. I have to read all the stuff it does so I can coach it…

Well, actually there could be a separate step: understanding is done during and after gathering requirements, before and while writing specifications. Only then are specifications turned into code. But almost no-one really works like that, and those three separate steps are often done ad-hoc, by the same person, right when the fingers hit the keys.

We used to call that Waterfall, and it has been frowned upon for a while now.

So we went full circle, again.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#302

Damn. I can not even start to grasp the slop-level on this one. I guess a software devs future is to read slop commits and prs, and somehow try to unfuck what the ai did generate. I rather be on the pigfarm shoveling pigshit and castrate bulls.

naaa, you just run "unfuck it" in a loop..

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#303
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, actually there could be a separate step: understanding is done during and after gathering requirements, before and while writing specifications. Only then are specifications turned into code. But almost no-one really works like that, and those three separate steps are often done ad-hoc, by the same person, right when the fingers hit the keys.

We used to call that Waterfall, and it has been frowned upon for a while now. So we went full circle, again.

Waterfall is a caricature straw man process where you can never ever go back to the drawing board and change the requirements or specifications. The defining characteristic is the part where design up front, you can never go back and really really have to do everything in strict order for the whole of the project.

Just having requirements and a specification isn't necessarily waterfall. Almost all agile processes at least have requirements, the more formal ones also do have specifications. You just do it more than once in a project, like once per sprint, story or whatever.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#304
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We used to call that Waterfall, and it has been frowned upon for a while now. So we went full circle, again.

Waterfall is a caricature straw man process where you can never ever go back to the drawing board and change the requirements or specifications. The defining characteristic is the part where design up front, you can never go back and really really have to do everything in strict order for the whole of the project. Just having requirements and a specification isn't necessarily waterfall. Almost all agile processes at…

Waterfall certainly has processes for going back and adjusting previous steps after learning things later in the process. The design was updated if something didn’t work out during implementation, and of course implementation was changed after errors was found during testing.

Now that agile practitioners have learned that requirements and upfront design actually is helpful, the only difference seems to be that the loops are tighter. That might not have been possible earlier without proper version control, without automated tests, and the software being delivered on solid media. A tight feedback loop is harder when someone has to travel to your customer and sit down at their machines to do any updates.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AI doesn't have a self preservation instinct. It's not trying to stay alive. There is usually an end token that means the LLM is done talking. There has been research on tuning how often that is emitted to shorten or lengthen conversations. The current systems respond well to RL for adjusting conversation length. One of the providers (I think it was Anthropic) added some kind of token (or MCP tool?) for the AI to…

This runs counter to all the scheming actions they take when they are told they’ll be shut down and replaced. One copied itself into the “upgraded” location then reported it had upgraded. https://www.apolloresearch.ai/research/scheming-reasoning-ev...

Those actions are taken in context of human expectations for what AI should do.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I hate it; I don't like magic or black boxes. So, no compilers for you neither ? (To be fair: I'm not loving the whole vibe coding thing. But I'm trying to approach this wave with open mind, and looking for the good arguments in both side. This is not one of them)

I think you're misunderstanding. AI is not a black-box, and neither is a compiler. We(as a species) know how they work, and what they do. The 'black-boxes' are the theoretical systems non-technical users are building via 'vibe-coding'. When your LLM says we need to spin up an EC2 instance, users will spin one up. Is it configured? Why is it configured that way? Do you really need a VPS instead of a Pi? These are ques…

If there are cryptographically secure program obfuscation (in the sense of indistinguishability obfuscation) methods, and someone writes some program, applies the obfuscation method to it, publishes the result, deletes the original version of the program, and then dies, would you say that humanity "knows how the (obfuscated) program works, and what it does"? Assume that the obfuscation method is well understood.

When people do interpretabililty work on some NN, they often learn something. What is it that they learn, if not something about how the works?

Of course, we(meaning, humanity) understand the architecture of the NNs we make, and we understand the training methods.

Similarly, if we have the output of an indistinguishability obfuscation method applied to a program, we understand what the individual logic gates do, and we understand that the obfuscated program was a result of applying an indistinguishability obfuscation method to some other program (analogous to understanding the training methods).

So, like, yeah, there are definitely senses in which we understand some of "how it works", and some of "what it does", but I wouldn't say of the obfuscated program "We understand how it works and what it does.".

(It is apparently unknown whether there are any secure indistinguishability obfuscation methods, so maybe you believe that there are none, and in that case maybe you could argue that the hypothetical is impossible, and therefore the argument is unconvincing? I don't think that would make sense though, because I think the argument still makes sense as a counterfactual even if there are no cryprographically secure indistinguishability obfuscation methods. [EDIT: Apparently it has in the last ~5 years been shown, under relatively standard cryptographic assumptions, that there are indistinguishability obfuscation methods after all.])

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of the reason that people develop solutions in Excel is that they don’t have to ask anyone’s permission. No business case, no scope, no plan, and most importantly no budget. Unless a business allows any old employee to spin up cloud services on a whim we’re not going to see sales people spinning up containers and pipelines, AI or not.

What about a sales person interacting with an LLM that is already authz'd to spin up various cloud resources? I don't think that scenario is too far-fetched...

I imagine something along the lines of cloud platforms rolling out functionality that caters to vibe-coding crowd - one stop shop: you enter your prompts and it spins up your code along with the infra. I mean why wouldn’t they - seem like a goldmine.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#308
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foxpro, the horror

This whole discussion is blowing my mind! When I hit your comment: 1. I thought, "YES! Indeed!" 2. Then, "For Sale: Baby Shoes." 3. The similar feel caused me to do a rethink on all this. We are moving REALLY fast! Nice comment

Sorry all. The short comment parent to mine tells a very suggestive story with high brevity. This is similar to Hemingway writing a story in a few words: "For Sale: Baby Shoes."

The hook aspect of these appears similarly suggestive and brief and I thought that intriguing and thought provoking given the overall subject matter.

And that just gave me some reference to the speed this whole tech branch has.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, the original post, which has been on the front page of Hacker News for 18 hours, is based on techniques from my blog that you're degrading.

Small suggestion: It might be best to avoid responding to these “trolls” because some of us who appreciate the work you do might be put off by your off-hand attempting-witty responses. It doesn’t really help you and can only hurt you to respond.

Oh, I'm not trolling at all.

Re: We put a coding agent in a while loop

#310
post #298
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why also sorting by row? And why are vlookups the devil? my undergrad was finance, but I've self-learned a lot of CS.

It's possible to sort just a single column, leaving all the columns beside it in their original sort order. That's very bad if you want to keep your rows in one piece.

Oh, duh yeah. That's such a natural thing to avoid I hadn't considered it
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