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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#301

Post by sneak »

303uru wrote: post #152
lenerdenator wrote: post #138

Ah, Sig. On the one hand, gold (P365). On the other hand, painful, agonizing failure (P320). If you make new-design firearms in any significant volume, you will have safety recalls. I don't know how many times I've gone to another gunmaker's website to see a banner announcing a safety recall. The important thing is that you stand behind your product 100%, and Sig's not doing that, even with arguably the most prestigi…

P365 is great if it fits in your hand. But agree, denial has me pretty put off.

The P365 has a design flaw where there is a pinch point on your palm when changing magazines.

The first time my partner used it, she gave herself a blood blister on the palm of her hand.

Additionally, the trigger is super mushy, with like 4 different sticky break points, where only the last one is actually for firing. I hated everything about it; we bought it only because it fit her hand.

It was my first and last Sig. I have no idea why people buy pistols that aren’t Glocks.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#302

Post by Hikikomori »

ahoka wrote: post #299
solatic wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters A LOT. Gun fights are typically over within just a few seconds and the person who fires first has a huge advantage. I know there are a lot of people who share this opinion, but speaking as ex-military, I think it's quite disingenuous and dangerous. Real life isn't some old-fashioned Western film where draw speed matters. If an adversary i…

[flagged]

Instead everyone brings guns into everyday situations like road rage.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#303

Post by sneak »

esseph wrote: post #141
tshaddox wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One common thread is that there's virtually no time between when you realize you're going to need your sidearm and when you need it. I would be surprised if this is true for the majority of situations. I'm sure there are situations where you have very little time, but also many situations where the additional time it would take to chamber a round is negligible.

Most states prevent you from drawing without firing, because it is considered brandishing / threatening. So you either draw and fire and call the police and tell them what happened, or you don't and just... deal with the consequences of whatever happened instead.

I’m fine with a brandishing charge if it defuses the situation and ends the threat and I don’t have to kill anyone.

I would take almost any criminal charge over being forced to kill somebody.

If I hadn’t been willing to brandish at least once, I would have had to shoot to kill, and that sucks bad. Being in a gunfight is the last thing that I want besides being dead or severely injured.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#304

Post by probably_wrong »

BeetleB wrote: post #96
tshaddox wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

I recently got into handguns and training. I recommend everyone who has access to it go into training where you take a real handgun that's been modified to shoot laser and has CO2 recoil. The setup is that you have a screen (perhaps all around you), playing out a scenario. You're in a convenience store, and something may happen that requires you to defend yourself. Even with a fair amount of training, the adrenalin s…

> Another thing I thought was crazy: People sleeping with a loaded gun by their bed.

To me this sounds like not putting your seatbelt on in case you ever need to get out of your car underwater: you're improving your chances at a statistically-unlikely event (home invasion) by making your chances worse at a much likelier event (accidental discharge).

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#305

Post by Foxhuls »

deelowe wrote: post #278
mrbonner wrote: post #224

The Glock, on the other hand, doesn't have a safety lever. Instead, it uses a double trigger pull mechanism to help prevent accidental firing. I've often wondered if a safety lever gives people a false sense of security. With the Glock, you must always assume the gun is ready to fire, which requires careful handling. I thought most law enforcement and military agencies use the Glock as standard issue. Isn't it?

No. I don't think glock has ever gotten a US military contract.

They have a contract with the army and are used heavily in the special forces community.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#306

Post by kortilla »

solatic wrote: post #291
deelowe wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many modern guns for personal protection do not have manually actuated safeties and instead rely on other mechanisms to prevent accidental discharge. For example, glocks have a "trigger safety." Without getting into minutia, these sort of features do a fine job of ensuring the gun does not fire unless the trigger is intentionally actuated. The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters…

> The reason manual safeties are going away is that for side arms, time matters A LOT. Gun fights are typically over within just a few seconds and the person who fires first has a huge advantage. I know there are a lot of people who share this opinion, but speaking as ex-military, I think it's quite disingenuous and dangerous. Real life isn't some old-fashioned Western film where draw speed matters. If an adversary i…

This isn’t true in robberies where someone pulls a gun as an intimidation tactic.

There are plenty of videos where the store owner shoots a robber who pulled out a gun before the robber could fire.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#307

Post by nabla9 »

This is a good example of social hysteria.

1. The P320 had a real issue with firing when dropped. Although it had passed all drop tests, when dropped at a 25-degree angle onto the rear sight, the weight of the trigger was enough to fire the gun. There is a voluntary fix available for older weapons, but no recall has seen necessary.

Now, we have many videos and widespread discussion about this. Millions of people and police officers own P320s, and sometimes they make errors. It's natural to blame the gun when freak accidents occur, especially when they result in injury. The narrative of a big, greedy company trying to hide issues is always present and can be applied to almost anything.

2. Cases where the gun fired without the trigger being touched are very questionable. From lawsuits, examples include: carrying a round in the chamber and wrapping the P320 in cloth to move it; or carrying a round in the chamber and placing the P320 into a handbag. The case where a police officer's P320 fired while holstered (and there's a video of it) was studied by the FBI. The report notes that the officer had keys in his hand when he moved it near the holster. In most such cases, it's very easy to see how something could have touched the trigger. If the P320 had a genuine systemic issue, it would show up in statistics as an above-average number of accidents.

3. Now a separate P320 "out-of-battery fire" issue that's gaining traction online. This is clearly a typical hand-loading or questionable ammunition source issue, which is relatively common with all firearm models.

Summary: Starting with real issue, social media attention attached to some thing can have it's own life. making a typical number of incidents, with a variety of causes, look like a huge trend.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#308

Post by zokier »

alecco wrote: post #295
spl757 wrote: post #133

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other cla…

> I have not had the self-recall fix done Why? Also, isn't that only an issue in early P320s? (at least according to Sig) > and I'll never chamber a round in it again Isn't this good enough for most uses? Heck, a long time ago I was trained to only chamber after unholstering AND entering a situation requiring quick response. The extra round not being worth the risk. 17 instead of 17+1 for the 9mm P320, right? Honestl…

> Honestly, this all smells like an overblown hysteria campaign to pump American brands.

Sig Sauer, Inc is an American company, and M17/M18 are manufactured solely in US. Afaik the design is also from US.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#309

Post by franktankbank »

spacephysics wrote: post #199
spl757 wrote: post #133

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other cla…

A week or so ago the FBI report investigating an incident of unintentional discharge back in 2024 was released via FOIA. This particular case was a police officer who had the firearm in the holster, and by just normal movement it went off. Multiple layers of the striker fire system safety’s failed, and fired the chambered round. What was particularly beneficial/unique is the P320 was kept in the holster when given to…

Crazy that Sig Sauer is pushing back on this as lies then. (per featured article)

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#310

Post by zokier »

Alupis wrote: post #183
303uru wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not taking odds on an edc item which takes a lot of banging around. Glock 18 is a simple choice.

I'm still very curious why the P320 beat out the venerable Glock 17 & 19 combo in the Army's recent selection. It would seem being able to change from duty to compact is more of a gimmick than practical. I'd wager most P320's will spend their service life in exactly one configuration. Sig does have a way of making every pistol feel like it was custom molded to your hand - but Glocks "Just Work".

Wasn't Sigs offer significantly cheaper than Glock?
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