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Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

antirez.com

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Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#301

Post by mythz »

simonw wrote: post #141
dakiol wrote: post #25

> Gemini 2.5 PRO | Claude Opus 4 Whether it's vibe coding, agentic coding, or copy pasting from the web interface to your editor, it's still sad to see the normalization of private (i.e., paid) LLM models. I like the progress that LLMs introduce and I see them as a powerful tool, but I cannot understand how programmers (whether complete nobodies or popular figures) dont mind adding a strong dependency on a third part…

The models I can run locally aren't as good yet, and are way more expensive to operate. Once it becomes economical to run a Claude 4 class model locally you'll see a lot more people doing that. The closest you can get right now might be Kimi K2 on a pair of 512GB Mac Studios, at a cost of about $20,000.

Whilst it's not economically feasible to self-host, using premier OSS models like Kimi K2 / DeepSeek via OpenRouter gets you a great price with a fallback safety net of being able to self-host should the proprietary model Co's collude and try and squeeze more ROI out of us. Hopefully by then the hardware to run the OSS models will be a lot cheaper to run.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#302

Post by dbingham »

Aurornis wrote: post #290
ozgung wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The excuse "but you earn six figures, what' $200/month to you?" doesn't really capture the issue here. Just like every other subscription model, including the one in the Black Mirror episode, Common People. The value is too good to be true for the price at the beginning. But you become their prisoner in the long run, with increasing prices and degrading quality.

I don’t get it. There are multiple providers. I cancel one provider and sign up for someone new in a few minutes when I feel like changing. I’ve been doing this every few months. I think the only people worried about lock-in or Black Mirror themes are the people who are thinking about these subscriptions in an abstract sense. It’s really easy to change providers. They’re all improving. Competition is intense.

The same, in theory, applies to social media. But they've all enshittified in very similar ways now that they've captured their audiences. In theory there is intense competition between Meta, Twitter, TikTok, etc, but in actuality the same market forces drive the same enshittification across all of those platforms. They have convergent interests. If they all force more ads and suggested posts on you, they all make more money and you have no where to go.

People are reasonably worried that the same will happen to AI.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#303

Post by sothatsit »

gf000 wrote: post #298
keeda wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After all the effort getting to the point where the generated code is acceptable, one has to wonder, why not just write it yourself? Because it is still way, way, way faster and easier. You're absolutely right that the hard part is figuring out the solution. But the time spent typing is in no way trivial or cognitively simple, especially for more complex tasks. A single prompt can easily generate 5 - 10x the amount…

> frequently accounts for edge cases I hadn't considered, saving unquantifiable amounts of future debugging time; And creates new ones you wouldn't even consider before, creating just as much, if not more future debugging :D

I have actually been surprised at how few subtle bugs like this actually come up when using tools like Claude Code. Usually the bugs it introduces are glaringly obvious, and stem from a misunderstanding of the prompt, not due to the code being poorly thought out.

This has been a surprise to me, as I expected code review of AI-generated code to be much more difficult than it has been in practice. Maybe this has been because I only really use LLMs to write code that is easy to explain, and therefore probably not that complicated. If code is more complicated, then I will write it myself.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#304

Post by komali2 »

QRY wrote: post #193
simonw wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The models I can run locally aren't as good yet, and are way more expensive to operate. Once it becomes economical to run a Claude 4 class model locally you'll see a lot more people doing that. The closest you can get right now might be Kimi K2 on a pair of 512GB Mac Studios, at a cost of about $20,000.

Have you considered the Framework Desktop setup they mentioned in their announcement blog post[0]? Just marketing fluff, or is there any merit to it? > The top-end Ryzen AI Max+ 395 configuration with 128GB of memory starts at just $1999 USD. This is excellent for gaming, but it is a truly wild value proposition for AI workloads. Local AI inference has been heavily restricted to date by the limited memory capacity an…

They demo'd it live at computex and it was slooooow. Like two characters a second slow. Iirc he had 4 machines clustered.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#305

Post by bizzletk »

fragmede wrote: post #177
dakiol wrote: post #25

> Gemini 2.5 PRO | Claude Opus 4 Whether it's vibe coding, agentic coding, or copy pasting from the web interface to your editor, it's still sad to see the normalization of private (i.e., paid) LLM models. I like the progress that LLMs introduce and I see them as a powerful tool, but I cannot understand how programmers (whether complete nobodies or popular figures) dont mind adding a strong dependency on a third part…

> Programming used to be (and still is, to a large extent) an activity that can be done with open and free tools. Not without a lot of hard thankless work by people like RMS to write said tools. Programming for a long while was the purview of Microsoft Visual Studio family, which cost hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. There existed other options, some of which was free, but, as is the case today with LLMs you ca…

Programmers have the ability to write tools that make their jobs/lives easier. This is the perfect alignment of incentives where the person who benefits from the production of a high-quality tool has the ability to deliver one into their hands.

And once the tool has been made, many people just give it away for others to benefit from too.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#307

Post by hahahal »

dakiol wrote: post #25

> Gemini 2.5 PRO | Claude Opus 4 Whether it's vibe coding, agentic coding, or copy pasting from the web interface to your editor, it's still sad to see the normalization of private (i.e., paid) LLM models. I like the progress that LLMs introduce and I see them as a powerful tool, but I cannot understand how programmers (whether complete nobodies or popular figures) dont mind adding a strong dependency on a third part…

> Gemini 2.5 PRO | Claude Opus 4

What I thought you were going to say is “Gemini- wha?”.

I’ve used Gemini 2.5 PRO and would definitely not use it for most of my coding tasks. Yes, it’s better at hard things, but it’s not great at normal things.

I’ve not used Claude 4 Opus yet- I know it’s great at large context- but Claude 4 Sonnet Thinking is mostly good unless the task is too complex, and Claude 4 Sonnet is good for basic operations in 1-2 files- beyond that it’s challenged and makes awful mistakes.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#308

Post by vl »

ghm2180 wrote: post #116
quantumHazer wrote: post #9

I'm going a little offtopic here, but I disagree with the OPs use of the term "PhD-level knowledge", although I have a huge amount of respect for antirez (beside that we are born in the same island). This phrasing can be misleading and points to a broader misunderstanding about the nature of doctoral studies, which it has been influenced by the marketing and hype discourse surrounding AI labs. The assertion that ther…

> but rather to learn how to conduct research Further, I always assumed PhD level of knowledge meant coming up with the right questions. I would say it is at best a "Lazy Knowledge Rich worker", it won't explore hypothesis if you don't * ask it* to. A PHD would ask those questions to *themselves*. Let me give you a simple example: The other day Claude Code(Max Pro Subscription) commented out a bunch of test assertion…

It's ultrathink one word, not ultra-think. (See below).

I use Claude Code with Opus, and had same experience - was pushing it hard to implement complex test, and it gave me an empty test function with test plan inside in a comment (lol).

I do want to try Gemini 2.5 Pro, but I don't know a tool which would make experience compatible to Claude Code. Would it make sense to use with Cursor? Do they try to limit context?

  ~/.nvm/versions/node/v22.16.0/lib/node_modules/@anthropic-ai/claude-code $ npx prettier cli.js | ack ultrathink -C 20
  var jw1 = { HIGHEST: 31999, MIDDLE: 1e4, BASIC: 4000, NONE: 0 },
  Yk6 = {
    english: {
      HIGHEST: [
        { pattern: "think harder", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "think intensely", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "think longer", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "think really hard", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "think super hard", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "think very hard", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "ultrathink", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
      ],
      MIDDLE: [
        { pattern: "think about it", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "think a lot", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "think deeply", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "think hard", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "think more", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
        { pattern: "megathink", needsWordBoundary: !0 },
      ],
      BASIC: [{ pattern: "think", needsWordBoundary: !0 }],
      NONE: [],
    },

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#309

Post by vl »

I use Claude Code with Opus, and article recommends Gemini 2.5 Pro. I want to try it as well, but I don't know a tool which would make experience compatible to Claude Code. Would it make sense to use with Cursor? Do they try to limit context?

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#310

Post by ramraj07 »

vl wrote: post #309

I use Claude Code with Opus, and article recommends Gemini 2.5 Pro. I want to try it as well, but I don't know a tool which would make experience compatible to Claude Code. Would it make sense to use with Cursor? Do they try to limit context?

My experience, which seems fairly isolated, is that using Gemini's web chat interface and pasting entire sections of my codebase beats any other agent I've seen. Some come close, and some are good with very large files etc, but if you have a decently organized codebase then using gemini like this beats anything else.
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