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IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

theregister.com

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Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#301

Post by abracadaniel »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #259
chneu wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI is just giving other people the chance to setup the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people in a white dominated society. It isn't a law. It's just looking at history and going, "They'd probably be as successful if there was a pipeline for those folks to get there, since that pipeline doesn't exist we need to represent them to allow the pipeline to be built." You also don't seem to fully know wh…

I guess we don't agree what DEI is. I'm against different criteria for people based on race. This is most apparent in school admissions and affirmative action. I think it is a clear violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to have dual standards based on race. Also, I don't appreciate you blatant racism putting all white people into a single stereotype, not do I think it is accurate

I think definition is definitely an issue in the debate. What you’re describing I knew as affirmative action. I’ve only understood DEI as being willing to hire from diverse backgrounds, implemented by posting job positions in diverse areas like HBCUs. I’ve not personally seen any examples of different criteria for different people. Is this actually documented as something companies with DEI initiatives were doing post affirmative action?

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#302

Post by ryanobjc »

kmeisthax wrote: post #296
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-DEI argument is that modern racial disparities are predominantly caused by economic circumstances, e.g. black people are more likely to be poor and then less likely to have to startup capital to start their own business or be able to afford to attend a high status university. The same applies to white people who don't have affluent parents. "White people who grew up poor" are under-represented at the top of…

I don't think I've ever heard someone who opposes DEI say "we should fix our broken economy instead". But it's not wrong - the problems of racism and classism are uniquely intertwined and need to be fixed together. The way DEI is usually framed by opponents is less "companies are using DEI to buy woke points so they don't fix the real economic issues" and more "companies deliberately hired unqualified black lesbians…

It's rather ironic since we know that women, poc, and more often face a lot of professional resistance, and therefore have to be better than average to succeed.

Which means when you come across a black or female professional who has risen, it means they actually are much more likely to be MORE talented than the average white man.

In other words, this notion of "diversity hires" is not logical. It barely makes sense.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#303

Post by Izkata »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #179
harimau777 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue that I have is that I've almost never seen an anti-DEI advocate actually engage with the issues. Even if I ultimately disagreed with them, I could respect someone who was willing to look at the problems the US is having with inequality and present a reasoned argument for alternatives to DEI. However, what I usually see is people either ignoring the issues people are facing, ignoring the arguments put forth…

The anti-DEI argument is that modern racial disparities are predominantly caused by economic circumstances, e.g. black people are more likely to be poor and then less likely to have to startup capital to start their own business or be able to afford to attend a high status university. The same applies to white people who don't have affluent parents. "White people who grew up poor" are under-represented at the top of…

> and not just fudge the metric through race quotas etc.

It goes further than just fudging the metrics: By relying on quotas you have to dig deeper into the minority pool of candidates, and are more likely to get someone less skilled than if you hadn't used quotas. This combined with the overall focus on DEI just ends up reinforcing racism/sexism when the quota-hires are more inept than the non-quota hires.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#304

Post by wredcoll »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #267
dfxm12 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI is not a law. I get how this misunderstanding is possible given how wildly the term gets thrown about by conservatives, like it is a boogieman that is the source of everyone's problems. Anyway, everyone is already ostensibly equal under the law, but, like you've recognized, we've still found our way into a system of racism (that goes beyond governmental discrimination). Logically, to recognize systemic racism, th…

With respect to education, I'm not attached to SAT scores. Pick any non racial metric of merit, and I'm OK with it. Income is fine, not a protected clause. Random is fine too. Just don't promote or penalize people based on race. With respect to jobs, if you agree the most qualified person should get it, we are similarly aligned. If you agree with all that, we are good, not matter what it is called. I just call it non…

I'm not sure this is terribly relevant given where the conversation has gone, but in your example, college admissions, race was essentially used as a tie breaker between equally qualified candidates.

I suspect that's how it ended up being used in a lot of places (aside from deliberate outreaches to encourage applications, etc).

Beyond that though, I'm not sure not getting into harvard is exactly a "grave injustice". You don't have a right or entitlement to go to harvard regardless of what your academic score is. And I don't think there's a reasonable argument that there should be such a right.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#305

Post by jensensbutton »

jgalt212 wrote: post #265
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I am curious if anyone can find the text for "IBM's Policy Letter #4" written by IBM's chairman in 1953, which is referenced in this article. I did some searching but all the links I found to the full text were broken. I ask because I think it shows what a Rorschach test the arguments over DEI have become. I at least found one quote from the Policy Letter #4 which stated "It is the policy of this organization to hire…

Just because you don't like people or tribe supporting a policy or their motives supporting such policies doesn't make a policy good or bad or valid or invalid. During COVID times, some statements or policies that turned out to be true were overly supported by some b wacky and or political undesirable people. Reacting to this, many decisions or policies stayed in place or were undertaken.

Is this an argument to keep DEI in place?

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#306

Post by wredcoll »

leereeves wrote: post #258
chneu wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI is just giving other people the chance to setup the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people in a white dominated society. It isn't a law. It's just looking at history and going, "They'd probably be as successful if there was a pipeline for those folks to get there, since that pipeline doesn't exist we need to represent them to allow the pipeline to be built." You also don't seem to fully know wh…

> the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people There is no opportunity pipeline for white people. There is an opportunity pipeline for a small number of well connected, wealthy people who can get their kids into elite prep schools starting from kindergarten. It's not open to working class white people. Edit: that doesn't mean no working class white person can succeed. Just that the prep school, elite…

"Small number" is doing a lot of work. Just as an example: https://heller.brandeis.edu/news/items/releases/2023/impact-...

Quite a few "white people" got a start at accumulating property this way that was denied to "black people". Is it directly tied to going to college? No. Does it help? Probably.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#307

Post by Alupis »

fazeirony wrote: post #165
BurningFrog wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non conspiracy explanation: It seemed to work at first, but over time it became clear it didn't.

> but over time it became clear it didn't. are profits spiralling downward? are these businesses, overall, making less profit? because of remote workers? or is it closer to the truth to say that no amount of profit - or asserting authority over workers - is ever enough and since companies are in a position of power to squeeze blood from a stone, they will?

Profits don't have to spiral for something to become clear it's not working.

Maybe it's as simple as "this used to take us 3 weeks but now it's taking 5"... or "we're shipping features but they have a lot more holes than before".

Collaboration is pretty hard remotely when you have to schedule discussions and everything else is asynchronous. Certain tasks lend themselves greatly to WFH, but not all of them.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#308

Post by anon6362 »

Hobadee wrote: post #273

I really don't mind RTO. As a mostly-remote worker right now, I would actually prefer a few office days each week; being right next to colleagues and able to spitball news, ideas, and other work (and non-work) stuff is great for my knowledge, abilities, and morale. With that being said, It's also nice to be able to get uninterrupted heads-down time, or just work at my own pace at home some times. I think 3 days in-of…

Don't fall for the commute hype. Get a life that doesn't living at work or require sitting in traffic to fulfill the whims of management control-freaks.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#309

Post by swat535 »

hackable_sand wrote: post #284
rayiner wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think people who have different skin colors do their jobs differently? Can you articulate how you think your white workers do their jobs differently than say your hispanic workers?

You are obsessed with race. It's weird.

Isn’t it a bit odd to dismiss discussions that focus on race, when DEI by definition centers on factors like race, gender, and ethnicity?

If the goal is to address inequality across these lines, shouldn’t that require a strong focus, some might say an obsession, with those very attributes?

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#310

Post by wredcoll »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #259
chneu wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI is just giving other people the chance to setup the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people in a white dominated society. It isn't a law. It's just looking at history and going, "They'd probably be as successful if there was a pipeline for those folks to get there, since that pipeline doesn't exist we need to represent them to allow the pipeline to be built." You also don't seem to fully know wh…

I guess we don't agree what DEI is. I'm against different criteria for people based on race. This is most apparent in school admissions and affirmative action. I think it is a clear violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to have dual standards based on race. Also, I don't appreciate you blatant racism putting all white people into a single stereotype, not do I think it is accurate

> I'm against different criteria for people based on race.

People keep saying this. It's such a nice and simple statement. "All men are created equal!". It's the details of real life where you tend to run into issues.

Are we allowed to measure what percentage of various races get to go to harvard? If we find an oddity can we correct it? How do you fix both the existing racial biases and the previous history of racial biases affecting people's positions?

Saying "racism is dead let's not worry about it" seems like a really convenient position to take. You don't have to actually do any work.

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