After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work • Hacker News Board

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#301

Post by johnnyanmac » Mon, Apr 07, 2025, 9:11 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #194

HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you want to attract talent or people who take anything they can get? People who know what they're worth aren't going to waste investing their time into an employer who can't even guarantee that they'll still have a job next week. Mundane government employees are some of the most dedicated workers I've met. There's a deep array of jobs that aren't flashy but are foundational and depend on staff who can build up lon…

> Mundane government employees are some of the most dedicated workers I've met And you think the reason they are dedicated is because they mostly care about having a "stable job"?

Thars like saying "the reason the best employees are good is that they are paid the most money". You're putting the cart ahead of the horse here.

They are dedicated partially because they can spend their time focused on doing their job and not grinding leet code looking for the next pay bump in 2 years. Those pay scales are very strict in government, and very predictable.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#302

Post by johnnyanmac » Mon, Apr 07, 2025, 9:14 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #226

mulmen wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that government employees accept less pay because they are passionate?

So this begs the question why we need "stable employment" as a hallmark of the government sector in order to attract talent.

Let's flip the script. How have young people felt about the private sector as their entry level jobs have focused more around a turnover based culture than ever? Do you feel Gen Z is passionate about work or even about trying to maximize their compensation? Do they seem happy or even tolerant of a 9-5 to (not) make ends meet?

What makes you think applying these practices to the public sector will work for the better?

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#303

Post by johnnyanmac » Mon, Apr 07, 2025, 9:22 PM UTC

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #90

jmward01 wrote: post #50

The obvious methodology at work here is 'fire everyone then hopefully re-hire only what is blindingly obviously needed'. There are many, many problems with this approach in a business setting but even more from a governmental setting. The first, and what should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of empathy, is that these are real people who's lives are being toyed with. It isn't like you are trying out a new business…

There's no methodology at work, it's just indiscriminate firings to cull as many people as possible. This is clear from other other departments where they fired everyone they could. "Coding error" is just a modern version of "the dog ate my homework". Lame but people will swallow it. They knew what they were doing, they just regret getting caught. Sadly, once the firings, rehirings, refirings, court cases, and compen…

"coding error" makes it seem like some technical issue. Meanwhile, anyone in tech knows this is at best an administrative error and that there was no "coding" involved whatsoever. But you don't want to blame admins who are doing your bidding, no?

Anyone who really thinks this is "efficient" need to understand that they are firing the IRS during tax season and realize how absurd that is. It's like announcing a mass layoff the week before shilling our a product. You at least wait until shipping before the layoff wave hits

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#304

Post by johnnyanmac » Mon, Apr 07, 2025, 9:24 PM UTC

joquarky wrote: post #266

kelnos wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no methodology at work, it's just indiscriminate firings to cull as many people as possible. That is the methodology, though. Musk's biography (I believe) contains a bit about how one of his business strategies when trying to make drastic changes is to just fire, fire, fire, fire people. And if you don't realize afterward that you fired too many, and have to hire back at least 10% of them, then you didn't f…

Treating people as fungible objects: is this not a clear sign of some serious anti-social mental problems?

He keeps talking about how "everyone wants a robot buddy". I think that's beyond reasonable double. He clearly does not trust any humans these days.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#305

Post by chias » Mon, Apr 07, 2025, 10:00 PM UTC

tombert wrote: post #62

the_snooze wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Its a trap. Trust is efficient. Lack of trust is inefficient. If someone untrustworthy like Musk fired me and suddenly wanted a do-over, I'd counter with a completely selfish arrangement like a $500/hr contracting rate with some non-trivial amount due up front.

Tangential, but I almost never get to tell this story. In 2012 I was fired from a job (on my birthday!). I hated this job, I hated my coworkers, I really hated my manager, I was pretty sure that the higher-ups were alcoholics since they always smelled like beer or whiskey, and the work was mind-numbing where quite literally 3/4 of my work was designing nametags even though I was ostensibly a "Java developer". Anyway,…

As someone who has recently had to start managing a fleet of macbooks: amusingly, this may very well be what happened.

Modern macs are not like a PC where you can just wipe it, due to a need to lock down on the secondary market for stolen macbooks. Assuming your old employer does not have an Apple Business Manager account and/or didn't purchase the laptop through it, then if the Recovery Lock gets triggered, then it is for all intents and purposes bricked unless you can provide an Activation Lock Bypass Key or have the user either log in or provide their AppleID password. I think every company goes through a phase of having to call a few ex employees and ask them to please pretty-please let them know their AppleID password before realizing that if you're going to have a Macbook fleet, you had better start doing Apple Business Manager.

I don't know if this is how things were in 2012, but at least these days: if they needed your password, and you never gave it to them, they probably did have to discard the device.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#306

Post by loktarogar » Mon, Apr 07, 2025, 10:40 PM UTC

AStonesThrow wrote: post #251

loktarogar wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we actually want "I just want a stable job" people being a significant part of the federal governments workforce? Yes, if you can't offer someone market rates then you need to offer them other things to fill that void. Stability is one of them, and is actually a good thing in government, when politics is so volatile. If the workforce is fired every time a new party comes into power, you don't have a stable gover…

> If the workforce is fired every time a new party comes into power What if the workforce is never fired, and government jobs acquire a reputation for ingrained incompetence, promotion from within for the unqualified, and a management so frustrated by their inability to turn over poorly-performing workers that nearly nothing productive gets done anymore? What if the workforce is full of appointments by the Old-Boy ne…

You are saying that there's enough irredeemable people in government positions that there's no government job that could suit their skill level?

That sounds like a crisis to me. What happens when they're all dumped on the street in one go?

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#307

Post by tombert » Mon, Apr 07, 2025, 10:52 PM UTC

chias wrote: post #305

tombert wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangential, but I almost never get to tell this story. In 2012 I was fired from a job (on my birthday!). I hated this job, I hated my coworkers, I really hated my manager, I was pretty sure that the higher-ups were alcoholics since they always smelled like beer or whiskey, and the work was mind-numbing where quite literally 3/4 of my work was designing nametags even though I was ostensibly a "Java developer". Anyway,…

As someone who has recently had to start managing a fleet of macbooks: amusingly, this may very well be what happened. Modern macs are not like a PC where you can just wipe it, due to a need to lock down on the secondary market for stolen macbooks. Assuming your old employer does not have an Apple Business Manager account and/or didn't purchase the laptop through it, then if the Recovery Lock gets triggered, then it…

I'm not sure how it was in 2012 either. It was a pretty old Mac, even at the time, so it's possible that they could have done some kind of wiping. I don't know. I hope it ended up in a landfill or as a paperweight because of their incompetence in setting it up for me, just as a final middle finger to that terrible job.

I certainly am not just going to give some random person who I don't like my password for free. I was using that password for multiple things at the time (I know, bad practice, I don't do that anymore), and for all I know they would have written that password down on a Post-It note on the manager's desk for someone to happily steal.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#308

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:02 AM UTC

jmward01 wrote: post #50

The obvious methodology at work here is 'fire everyone then hopefully re-hire only what is blindingly obviously needed'. There are many, many problems with this approach in a business setting but even more from a governmental setting. The first, and what should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of empathy, is that these are real people who's lives are being toyed with. It isn't like you are trying out a new business…

[deleted]

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#309

Post by throwawaymaths » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:18 AM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #299

throwawaymaths wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unions are the best way They are when labor is fungible, and when you're not paid by the public. Lots of crazy effects happen when the second condition is not met, for example prison guards unions advocating for harsher laws so that prisons stay full. > That doesn't mean printing money In principle, it does not. In practice you can count the countries that don't deficit finance on one hand.

>prison guards unions advocating for harsher laws so that prisons stay full. People in America always vote in attorneys who are "hard on crime though". I simply see that as unchecked reflection of the people's will. To double down on it, my state had a recent proposition rejected that would have addressed some prisoners rights regarding treatment and compensation. The bluest state you can imagine and we still can't p…

> People in America always vote in attorneys who are "hard on crime though"

They don't. For example chesa boudin in San Francisco (there are others too). Also don't forget that those tough on crime electees get campaign funds from those unions.

Re: After 'coding error' triggers firings, top NIH scientists called back to work

#310

Post by throwawaymaths » Tue, Apr 08, 2025, 12:20 AM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #297

throwawaymaths wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That happens much less than you'd think though Hard disagree. My dad worked for the federal government and he was railroaded for pointing out where money just disappeared down some corners. In his case it was untracked doctor reimbursements. This happens everywhere in government because the taxpayer just doesn't care and spending money itself is largely considered to be the metric of effectiveness -- goodhart's law…

Okay, so we have 3 options. 1. Make the taxpayer care and properly have them vote in not corrupt people. This can be from awareness campaigns, stronger community identity, or more frequent town halls as a start 2. Establish an ombudsman who can care and root this out of blatant corruption happens. So you don't feel like talking to a wall when trying to expose corrupt. 3. Blame the government as an entirely and shut i…

Some mix of all the solutions depending on how bad it is. At some point the net social benefit becomes negative. When that happens incremental reform is not preferable to tearing it down, exploring alternatives (e.g. 501c(3)s), and rebuilding as government if and only if a reasonable mechanism for accountability can be created without the meddling of the people who messed it up before.