Earlier quoted context omitted.
but US have many top ranking universities in the world, how can you believe that US is behind in education?
Universities accept international students, and hire faculty educated outside the US More relevant would be K-12
How Kerala got rich
301–310 of 329 posts
Re: How Kerala got rich
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's because America is fundamentally a Christian country. I know no one wants to hear this. But this zeitgeist is unmistakenly Christian. Interestingly enough the same forces are at work in kerala, which is one of the most Christian states in India (and the ruling communists are associated with them)
Can you expound on this idea? What does anti-wealth have to do with Christianity and how does Communism enter the frame in India? Prior to the mid 60s seeking betterment and wealth was one of the main reasons people migrated to the US replacing religious persecution back home as the main reason to come.
Secondly, Catholics are often setting up schools for everyone. India has always had a history of education, especially Kerala, but universal education of even the lower classes is extremely protestant. The church ended up adopting this around the time colonialism started and thus brought universal education to a widespread base in India.
Finally, the idea of touching everyone and treating them equally was against the general zeitgeist of the prevailing feudalistic highly hierarchical indian society. The first conversion attempts of the Portuguese for the south indian brahmins actually were incredibly successful (Nicholas of Tolentino). The Vatican even allows (and still allows as far as I'm aware, although no one does it) vedic rites for Catholics (malabar rites controversy).
However, no one wanted to give up untouchability. The Vatican eventually forced the missionaries to not have separate missions for touchables and untouchables, which basically ended Brahmanic conversions (and is one of the reasons indian Catholics no longer really care to do the vedic rites, since most are now from the lower class. As far as I know, some still do in Mangalore). Caste is still a problem in some christian communities in India but the bishops work to end it and it is officially condemned.
Which is to say, catholicism is associated with labor movement, equal social treatment, and universal education.
Which is also what the communists want.
It's no surprise that Kerala, being way more christian (and Catholic particularly) with a rich and prominent Christian history is thus the center of socialism.
Keep in mind also that communism in feudal countries has basically no relation to the communism you find on university campuses of america.
Now to the west. In the west, the church is seen as conservative, but the church is actually radically left wing in most parts of the world. It's only because leftism (in a global sense) is fundamentally a part of western culture that the church seems right wing because the church does not go as far as some leftist parties in the west.
Re: How Kerala got rich
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmanabhaswamy_Temple_treasur... : > The valuables have been accumulated in the temple over several thousand years, having been donated to the Deity, and subsequently stored in the Temple, by various Dynasties, such as the Cheras, the Pandyas, the Travancore royal family, the Kolathiris, the Pallavas, the Cholas, and many other Kings of both South India and beyond.[10][11][12][13][…
> It's unfortunate that a lot of narratives about India are driven by the North. The South is way more interesting, in my opinion (I'm biased). It's not from North India though. North India is not on the land-based trade routes between the Middle East and the Far East due to mountains along Myannmar. It's from Central Asia and the Middle East, who's views are often followed by Indian Muslims for political scoring aga…
I mean even customs that are 'Indian' in the diaspora are often north indian customs. It's fine, but it'd be like asking a new Yorker to make southern bbq
Re: How Kerala got rich
#304There is one part of the story that any reader should be well aware of, when consuming any content about Kerala - especially public comments on fora like HN. Kerala is deeply against extreme right wing politics. The big RW national coalition has struggled over the decades to grab power in Kerala. The RW has in turn spreads falsehoods, derogatory statements and outright propaganda against Kerala - very often based on…
Re: How Kerala got rich
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Kerala has a mix of Western population that decided to stay back after the Indian Independence that brought with them Christianity, education, hospitals, and the Catholic culture. Kerala is also one of the few places in India where you can eat beef without inhibitions. Christianity in Kerala is much older than European Christianity. Literally the land of the Apostles
> Literally the land of the Apostles That's literally just a nice story that people claim with very, very, very little to back it up. But I guess they literally claim that.
In fact many European maps contained the belief that there was a Christian kingdom in Kerala. They even had saints from there whose stories made their way over and were recorded.
Thus Kerala is as holy to christians as Rome, Constantinople, Spain, Armenia, Ethiopia, etc.
This talking point is often used by Hindu nationalists who claim that India is not holy to christians and thus christians are foreigners. I'll point out that (1) Kerala is holy and (2) there is more evidence of st Thomas in Kerala than of Parasurama parting the seas to reveal Kerala.
Re: How Kerala got rich
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
He can say whatever he likes, but in reality, what he did is literally throw in the garbage the complete intellectual baggage of the European socialist/communist movement and basically copied what Western allied South East Asian nations were already doing. If it makes him feel good not to call that 'capitalism' then that's fine. I guess it wouldn't have played well with the base back then. But in reality and operatio…
The state that one-sidedly 'threw away' the baggage of communism was the USSR, and we all know how that went. Any China scholar could tell you that China was already implementing market reforms before Deng, and that their controlled transition, managed by a strong party-state, is the grounds for their success. China is still a country operated on the basis of five-year plans. China is still a country governed by a Co…
That's not actually what happened, you should look up some history.
The USSR didn't throw away, communism, the member states just simply left.
And many of those states were then free of the communist party actually did quite well. Russia didn't, Ukraine didn't, but that's the reality when a country splits apart, some parts do well others don't.
> Any China scholar could tell you that China was already implementing market reforms before Deng
Part of it wasn't even voluntary on the party front, they simply accepted what was already happening instead of reversing it again.
> China is still a country operated on the basis of five-year plans.
hose plans are mostly projects of what they hope they can encourage private business to do and some public investment. Guess what many countries do, planning and public investment.
Lots of things they plan don't happen, lots of things that happen aren't planned. The planning is constantly adjust to what actually happens in the economy, including the global context.
> China is still a country where the state owns all land.
Legally maybe, but if you hand out control for 100 years the relevance of that isn't all that great. And that land can be freely traded between people. So in practical terms it works far more like private land ownership then anything the socialist thinkers of the late 19 and early 20th century.
> China is still a country where capital is not allowed to usurp the public interest.
That is just factually false, large companies in China regularly do things that hurt public interest. Unless you mean 'interest of the party leadership' and even then its only mostly true.
> In this, the reforms of Deng and the continued path of Xi are simply the highest synthesis of communism
Lol, they literally copied other East Asian economic models almost 1 to 1. They are just a log bigger and have more people. But I guess copying other successful clearly capitalist countries can be resold as 'highest synthesis of communism' to people who have irrational hate for capitalism.
And China economic growth or wealth isn't all that magically, its simply that China is much bigger then most others who have done it.
> They are the most faithful to Marxism, which has never preached any kind of static dogma, especially as it relates to economic policy.
I love Marxism, since he didn't actually define any outcome beyond maybe 'stateless and moneyless' you can just make up whatever the fuck you want as long as you are claiming to 'get there'. And China doesn't seem to go into a stateless moneyless direction.
Marx's "Historical materialism" is wrong for Western Europe and laudably false for China.
His critic of capitalism seems to be mostly ignored in China. As is his theory of class struggle as in China there is an ever growing Bourgeoisie.
But I guess copying what Taiwan and friends did and calling it 'Marxism' is one way to go.
Re: How Kerala got rich
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
The connection between education and wealth is very strong. Very sad that the US has decided to pursue a trajectory towards poverty in this area.
Questionable. There is defiantly some connection, but in what direction is open for debate. But its also the case that the Soviet block countries had lots of educated people, but couldn't make the economy work out. And given for how many years the US has had sub-optimal results in international education comparison, while the overall economy has done well also doesn't fit.
Too many kids go to other universities and study similar things. It's fine to explore these ideas, but at the end of the day you've got to make someone happy or they won't pay you.
Re: How Kerala got rich
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
but US have many top ranking universities in the world, how can you believe that US is behind in education?
Universities accept international students, and hire faculty educated outside the US More relevant would be K-12
Re: How Kerala got rich
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Literally the land of the Apostles That's literally just a nice story that people claim with very, very, very little to back it up. But I guess they literally claim that.
Meh. That's most stories attributed to the apostles. The story of st Thomas is ancient and even before colonization, the prevailing attitude in Europe was that st Thomas and st Bartholomew both proselytized India. You'll find references to this in many books and manuscripts. In fact many European maps contained the belief that there was a Christian kingdom in Kerala. They even had saints from there whose stories made…
... all
> The story of st Thomas is ancient and even before colonization
So? All Christian communities made up a bunch of nonsense about themselves, often linking themselves to the early church.
> the prevailing attitude in Europe was that st Thomas and st Bartholomew both proselytized India.
Yes and if you actually look up why that is the 'prevailing attitude' you will find that it is at best based on some 3rd century stories that Thomas might have been in Partia. But even those claims are completely baseless of anything before it.
> You'll find references to this in many books and manuscripts.
No you can't. There is one reference in Origen about Thomas maybe having gone to Parthia but that is just as much a story likely based on all the fake gospels people were writting at that time. We know well that by Origen time there were tons and tons of made up stories about all the (supposed) apostles, including about Thomas.
And then Eusebius later claimed he went to India (and India doesn't even mean necessarily mean India as we understand it). And Eusebius is basically the 'myth maker extraordinaire' of the early Christianity, and his claims is basically what almost everything later is based on. Basically anything the Christian believe about their history comes from this 4th century 'source'. So basically anything Eusebius claims is basically accepted by later church tradition as 'the truth'.
Its quite typical of early christian source to grow the story and add increasingly more and more stuff to them. You can see this even in the bible, compare Paul letters to Paul in Acts. Basically just a random wandering preacher, getting transformed into a magical superhero. Pretty typical of all early Christian figures. You start out with few people doing not so amazing things (likely as there is little evidence they existed at all), and 300 years later, every one of those people is basically the hero of their own expanding story. Characters that are not mentioned anywhere, get inserted into a later versions of the text, and then all of a sudden more text show up mentioning them, and couple 100 years later three is a whole textual tradition about all the things that person supposedly did. Basically its the Marval Cinematic Universe. Thomas is basically Hawkeye.
A much more likely story is that Eusebius book (or other gospels about Thomas) arrived in India and then expand on by the locals.
> In fact many European maps contained the belief that there was a Christian kingdom in Kerala.
There are tons of claims about all kinds of Christian kingdoms in the East threw-out the middle ages.
By the time firm knowledge of Kerla existed it was, much much later and is completely irrelevant to the question of Thomas.
I am not denying Christianity came to India pretty early on. That said, I think the claim that it arrived in the first century are not based on much, neither textual nor archeological evidence has ever been found to my knowledge.
> (2) there is more evidence of st Thomas in Kerala than of Parasurama parting the seas to reveal Kerala.
Sure but that's not how history works.
I am not sticking my finger into whatever Indian ideological drama I seem have stepped into.
Clearly I don't agree with whatever nationalist faction you are talking about. I am just point out what we actually know historically.
Re: How Kerala got rich
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
Questionable. There is defiantly some connection, but in what direction is open for debate. But its also the case that the Soviet block countries had lots of educated people, but couldn't make the economy work out. And given for how many years the US has had sub-optimal results in international education comparison, while the overall economy has done well also doesn't fit.
Education is tricky. The wrong education can really stunt your economic competitiveness. I'm sure the Soviet world had plenty of classroom time devoted to the glory of Communism. Each classroom probably had a politruk available to help out. Too many kids go to other universities and study similar things. It's fine to explore these ideas, but at the end of the day you've got to make someone happy or they won't pay you…
But yeah, if the economy can't use those people its just not effective.