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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#301

Post by paradox242 »

csomar wrote: post #90
arunabha wrote: post #19

It would be one thing if there was a clear policy and adherence to it. In that case, you could discuss and reason in good faith. However there is no such indication that this decision is based on a considered policy. Trump's supporters would say that this is a result of not wanting the US being involved in foreign conflicts. That is a laudable goal, however that is not what is happening here. From the article > On Fr…

It is not a petty tantrum though it might look like one. You have to consider that the incumbents have won the US elections, that's not a small feat. What many people are missing is that if the US main challenger is China and beating Russia is a far thing, then it makes sense for the US to ally with Russia against China. For that, the US might need to give Russia something (some EU countries?) for this hustle and als…

So the plan is to burn all of our current allies who joined us under a framework we devised largely for our own benefit so that we could maybe gain the favor of someone who is even less trustworthy and reliable than we are at this point against China? You really think this is smart? Trump is delivering the Russians their number 1 strategic goal since World War 2 by destroying NATO and trading this for seemingly nothing, which at this point again raises serious questions about what his actual motivations are with regard to his otherwise unexplainable deference to Putin and Russia in all things.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#303

Post by rayiner »

maxerickson wrote: post #300
rayiner wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my reading, that says we agreed not to invade Ukraine, not that we agreed to put american boots on the ground to defend Ukraine.

Does "nuclear weapons" attach to the first half of the or in section 4? Seems they wrote it poorly... "victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used" You are also engaged in some sophistry, where you are acting as if the hypothetical obligation you are discussing is the only possible obligation. Selling aging weapons stock is pretty clearly assistance, and it…

Don’t randomly accuse people of “sophistry.” Zelensky is publicly demanding a security guarantee, and sprung that on Trump at the meeting. I didn’t say there couldn’t be other support, but the security guarantee is what I’m talking about because that seems to be critical.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#304

Post by orbital-decay »

aemu wrote: post #210
bradhe wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing to see Russia win the Cold War—one we didn’t even know we were in. Their propaganda network is so strong that it took 3 weeks to go from “Russia is the enemy” to “eh, we have other problems” amongst the folks who…subscribe accordingly. Absolute masterclass in projecting power in the digital age.

Yeah, man. I have emigrated from Russia to EU five years ago and it is heartbreaking to see the developed US and some European countries go through the same bullshit we were going since 2011. Like half the country starts living in wild, completely imaginary world, and you can always tell what is the current agenda of the propaganda machine just by talking to some relatives who fell through that rabbit hole

You're talking about domestic propaganda. The parent blames external propaganda, instead of doing something or at least admitting that the domestic propaganda pipeline backfired. It's usually extremely hard to make people see their own issues. It's always someone else, not them.

Yes, in Russia it happened largely in the same way, and it started much earlier than in 2011 (in 2012 we already had literal Putin cultists marching down the streets). Some people blamed an external enemy for their troubles (both troubles and the enemy were usually imaginary, with the enemy usually being the US), others who rejected the idea blamed the other half and generally had their heads in the sand, but neither wanted to admit their issues or do anything substantial, leaving the Kremlin do what they wanted to do.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#305

Post by smac__ »

kelipso wrote: post #291
herculity275 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really sucks that "Saddam has WMDs" broke an entire generation of Americans into knee-jerk contrarianism regarding any global conflict US is involved in. What's the "WMD" equivalent here - what do you think the media is lying to you about? That there's an ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine is something all involved parties acknowledge.

There is absolutely no requirement that the US has to get involved in every regional conflict in the world. Let the Ukrainians and Russians deal with their mess. There are plenty of other regional conflicts we ignore.

The USA was part of the Budapest Memorandum. This is a pretty strong reason for the USA to provide support for Ukraine. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#306

Post by foldr »

kelipso wrote: post #291
herculity275 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really sucks that "Saddam has WMDs" broke an entire generation of Americans into knee-jerk contrarianism regarding any global conflict US is involved in. What's the "WMD" equivalent here - what do you think the media is lying to you about? That there's an ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine is something all involved parties acknowledge.

There is absolutely no requirement that the US has to get involved in every regional conflict in the world. Let the Ukrainians and Russians deal with their mess. There are plenty of other regional conflicts we ignore.

You really think that this conflict has no repercussions or implications for US interests?

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#307

Post by rayiner »

tiahura wrote: post #297
croes wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to burst your bubble, there is already a war and Russia is winning thanks to Trump. And don’t think it will be last one Russia started.

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Most of the Democrats who are good on foreign policy are republicans now (Gababrd). The Democratic Party was taken over by neocons (Hillary Clinton).

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#308

Post by rayiner »

foldr wrote: post #306
kelipso wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no requirement that the US has to get involved in every regional conflict in the world. Let the Ukrainians and Russians deal with their mess. There are plenty of other regional conflicts we ignore.

You really think that this conflict has no repercussions or implications for US interests?

“Repercussions or implications for US interests” is layering attenuation upon attenuation. That can’t be the standard.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#309

Post by rayiner »

bwb wrote: post #182
dgellow wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is 2-3 weeks, given how fast things are shifting

They are already drafting an end to sanctions, which is unbelievable.

Excellent! The Russia sanctions are causing collateral damage to much of the third world.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#310

Post by riehwvfbk »

herculity275 wrote: post #206
jisnsm wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine the very same thing being said if the USA had pulled out of the War on Terror. B-but they have WMD! The NYT said so!

It really sucks that "Saddam has WMDs" broke an entire generation of Americans into knee-jerk contrarianism regarding any global conflict US is involved in. What's the "WMD" equivalent here - what do you think the media is lying to you about? That there's an ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine is something all involved parties acknowledge.

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