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5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

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Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#301

Post by gspr »

gerdesj wrote: post #214

OK so someone has noticed that you "only" need 15MBs-1 for a 4K stream. Jolly good. Now let's address latency - that entire article only mentioned the word once and it looks like it was by accident. Latency isn't cool but it is why your Teams/Zoom/whatevs call sounds a bit odd. You are probably used to the weird over-talking episodes you get when a sound stream goes somewhat async. You put up with it but you really s…

And then comes all the latency _jitter_ inherent in a shared resource like 5G, and on top of that shenanigans like (transparently) MITM-ing TCP streams on a base station by base station base.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#302

Post by rsynnott »

Garvi wrote: post #299
rsynnott wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing that that was probably not in city centres, tho. (Also, where're you getting 'over 80'? From a quick search there seem to have been maybe 5 masts damaged/destroyed.)

In your search results. It was well over 80 at the time. 80 is the number mostly cited nowadays. I see you're down to 5 damaged. Good for you. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/least-90-phone-masts-a... https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-90-attacks-on-phone-m... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-52164358 https://www.businessinsider.com/77-phone-masts-fire-coronavi...

Vast majority of those were not destroyed or damaged. I think some of the tabloids may have conflated "any vandalism or attempted vandalism" with "actually damaged", but, well, that's tabloids for you.

> I see you're down to 5 damaged. Good for you.

Who's 'you' in this context?

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#303

Post by mecdu92 »

For me 3G is still 100% sufficient for my usage. Also the latency has not been a problem for me, but jitter is. The good thing generally latency is pretty much stable so jitter (which is derivative of latency) is minimal. I already don't understand what 4G added to me, let alone 5G

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#304

Post by pjmlp »

viraptor wrote: post #147

> Could maximum data speeds—on mobile devices, at home, at work—be approaching “fast enough” for most people for most purposes? That seems to be the theme across all consumer electronics as well. For an average person mid phones are good enough, bargain bin laptops are good enough, almost any TV you can buy today is good enough. People may of course desire higher quality and specific segments will have higher needs,…

That is the thing with capitalist exponential growth, it doesn't last forever, eventually it flattens out, where new goods only get acquired due to existing ones being replaced, or newer generations getting to acquire their first products.

Business should learn to earn just good enough to make by.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#305

Post by highcountess »

rstuart4133 wrote: post #231
protocolture wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second and third paragraph are contradictory. Common carriers become the barrier to network upgrades. Always. Without fail. Monopolies are a bad idea, whether state or privately owned. Let me give you 2 examples. In australia we had Telstra (Formerly Telecom, Formerly Auspost). Testra would resell carriers ADSL services, and they stank. The carriers couldn't justify price increases to upgrade their networks and…

Yeah, I've noticed the same things with roads. They are common carriers owned mostly by the government, so they never get upgraded. That freeway near my house is always clogged. Oh wait ... the reason that freeway is always clogged is they are ripping it up, doubling it's width. And now I think about it, hasn't the NBN recently upgraded their max speeds from 100 Mb/s, to 250Mb/s, and now to 1Gb/s. And isn't the NBN c…

[dead]

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#306

Post by Nyr »

mecdu92 wrote: post #303

For me 3G is still 100% sufficient for my usage. Also the latency has not been a problem for me, but jitter is. The good thing generally latency is pretty much stable so jitter (which is derivative of latency) is minimal. I already don't understand what 4G added to me, let alone 5G

3G (which nowadays is 3.5G) is sufficient for you only because everyone else is on 4G or 5G.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#307

Post by Garvi »

rsynnott wrote: post #302
Garvi wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your search results. It was well over 80 at the time. 80 is the number mostly cited nowadays. I see you're down to 5 damaged. Good for you. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/least-90-phone-masts-a... https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-90-attacks-on-phone-m... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-52164358 https://www.businessinsider.com/77-phone-masts-fire-coronavi...

Vast majority of those were not destroyed or damaged. I think some of the tabloids may have conflated "any vandalism or attempted vandalism" with "actually damaged", but, well, that's tabloids for you. > I see you're down to 5 damaged. Good for you. Who's 'you' in this context?

That's not really ambiguous.

So it didn't happen, because it was *obviously* made up? The problem with such reasoning is, it does not require substantiation. You should find 20 people that also believe it(shouldn't have a problem on this platform) and you can start a religion.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#308

Post by theshackleford »

sureIy wrote: post #273
theshackleford wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4K video reaches you only because it's compressed to crap. Yes, but I assume when they say the "consumer" they mean everyone not us. Most people i've had in my home couldnt tell you the difference between a 4K bluray at 2 odd meters on a 65" panel vs 1080p. I can be looking at a screen full of compression artificts that seem like the most obvious thing i've ever seen and ill be surrounded by people going "what are…

You can't ask someone today to see what they're not used to see. I expect a future of screens that are natively subtly 3D and where you could see someone's nose hair without focusing. Only then they will notice "why do they look blurry and flat" when comparing it to an old TV. Today if you get closer to a TV you will see blur. Tomorrow you will see the bird's individual strands of feathers. "Good enough" is temporary…

> Only then they will notice "why do they look blurry and flat" when comparing it to an old TV.

They either won’t notice or won’t care and even if they do, it takes far longer than enthusiasts expect for the line to move.

Large numbers of people still say in 2025 that ‘4K is a gimmick,’ so I’m not holding my breath. ‘Good enough’ lasts much longer for the majority than most realise.

Look at displays today: I can’t even buy a modern one with motion quality that matches what I had 20 years ago. Why? Because for the average consumer, what we have is ‘good enough’ and has been for a long time.

> Today if you get closer to a TV you will see blur. Tomorrow you will see the birds individual strands of feathers

No, I’ll see blur. Unless you’re suggesting we’ve magically solved sample and hold induced motion blur in the consumer display space?

Of course, I know you meant in a still frame however if I wanted to stare at a high quality still image, I’d save myself the money and just go with some nice framed artwork instead.

> “Good enough” is temporary.

I’ll grant you this on a long enough timeframe. But it’s got a long tail and it’s gonna be a slow ride.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#309

Post by lambdaone »

Wireless networks' latency problems are almost entirely caused by contention, buffering, and vast over-booking of bandwidth, where raw bandwidth number competition has been over-valued relative to actual network application performance.

L4S is on its way, and may finally be the beginning of the end for bufferbloat and congestion, and vendors of mobile devices are in an almost unique position of being able to roll out network stack changes en masse. And just for once, consumer incentives, vendor incentives and network operator incentives all align - and it's incremental, and lacking in incentives for bad actors.

See this blog entry: https://www.ietf.org/blog/banishing-bufferbloat/ for more on L4S and bufferbloat. And this: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-10... for a proper technical deep dive.

The development of L4S has been a pincer operation across all levels of the network stack, integrating everything previously understood about latency and congestion in real networks, and one of the most impressive bits of network engineering I've seen in the history of the Internet.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#310

Post by Hikikomori »

nomel wrote: post #238
timewizard wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a 1/4 megabit per second. The codec should be around 32,00 bytes and thus 256,000 bits. The problem is the Internet is not multicast so if I'm on with 8 participants that's 8 * 32,000 bytes and our distributed clocks are nowhere near sample accurate. If you really want to have some fun come out to the country side with me where 4G is the only option and 120ms is the best end to end latency you're going to get.…

The first time I learned about UDP multicasting, I thought it was incredible, wondering how many streams were out there that I could tap into, if only I knew the multicast group, and all with such little overhead! Then I tried to send some multicast packets to my friend's house. I kept increasing the hop limit, thinking I was surely sending my little UDP packet around the world at that point. It never made it. :(

Mbone.
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