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How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

reuters.com

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Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#301

Post by forgotoldacc »

adev_ wrote: post #216
forgotoldacc wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They completely miss the electrification This applies to all Japanese car companies now. They've basically told China, "Please, take the loyal market we've built up these past 40 years. We don't need or want it. We want to die." It makes no sense. They're betting on ICE vehicles losing no demand and on "clean" hydrogen completely displacing all demand for electric vehicles entirely. And a quick rundown on how clean…

> They've basically told China, "Please, take the loyal market we've built up these past 40 years. We don't need or want it. We want to die." It is more complicated than that. The Chinese government in the last decade made the life of foreign automotive brand un-manageable. Most of them (outside of the luxury market) are now getting out. They enforces rules that are clearly designed for IP leaks and takeover. For ins…

What I was saying had absolutely nothing to do with the Chinese internal market. I'm talking about Chinese companies making EVs and exporting them, consuming a market Japan should've logically taken.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#302

Post by VectorLock »

olyjohn wrote: post #296
VectorLock wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not personally convinced that minivans lend themselves to much differentiation. I agree. That is why my original thesis was that Hondas are now uninspiring, undifferentiated and boring. Pretty much minivans are all those things, by default.

Ah yes, so then you buy a 4 door pickup truck or crossover which isn't as good as the minivan in any practical way. But at least you aren't driving a minivan. Your peen size is safe from the world.

I'd happily drive a minivan because they are better than small pickups, SUVs and crossovers in many ways but they're boring and thats the mold they're trying to fill. If someone broke that mold then maybe they'd find people like the utilitarian appeal of the minivan but want a little bit more than the bare necessities of hauling children.

Ad hominem attacks against fellow posters is very anti-HN.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#304

Post by dredds »

kridsdale1 wrote: post #79
orwin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under Goshn and his close early advisors, Renault-Nissan started working on EVs, launching the Leaf and Zoé. Early, he also managed to streamline production of the two companies, and started to implement management changes that let some workers have more autonomy. The issue is that power got to his head and truly believe he was the second coming of Jesus or something, and stopped improving his companies to rub should…

Boy, that final paragraph sure looks like another automaker CEO…

His pay sounds small in retrospect and hardly compares to what Elon extracts from Tesla, but still deemed high by Japan's standards where employee's jobs are considered sacrosanct in a more just system. Ultimately that was why he was hired in the first place, and Nissan needed such a outsider at a critical moment to reform themselves but didn't learn from it unfortunately.

Asianometry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsL6JAUZFiQ

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#305

Post by smcin »

mikeyouse wrote: post #273
smcin wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so - Japan's [criminal] justice system is absolutely not "universally considered to be one of the worlds' fairest". Cite any authoritative source for claiming that. Most sources I found cite the Nordic countries or other W European countries. (A high conviction rate at trial in Japan is merely due to not having a right-to-silence, imprisonment till trial, prosecutors discretionarily dropping some cases.)

Japan is 14th here (above UK, Belgium, France, Spain and the US): https://worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index/global/202... Most of the stereotypes of the Japanese justice system are outdated, and it's pretty funny to hear one of the wealthiest people in the world claim he wouldn't get a fair trial there while he was walking free with unrestricted access to his lawyers after numerous arrests for serious financi…

"universally considered to be one of the worlds' fairest" is not accurate, and "good by Asian standards, but not as good as the North European average" is more like it.

It is not stereotype but simple fact to state that Ghosn was held for questioning for a ridiculously long time by Western standards: 129 days over two periods in the Tokyo Detention House, of which 53 before indictment. Eight hours a day questioning, with no defense lawyer allowed to be present. You might somehow incriminate yourself if that was done to you too.

Ghosn was absolutely a special case: it was extremely plausible that he wouldn't get a fair trial there, as he was the highest-profile (non-Asian) foreigner in Japanese industry, with saturation international media coverage, and moreover there was major protectionism within the two car companies against operationally merging with Renault and actually having plant closings and major layoffs in one of Japan's most sacred industries, which also reportedly incurred high-level opposition from government. (This is not commenting on the specifics of Ghosn's financial case.)

And again, the fact that few high-profile white-collar cases go to trial but end in a plea (which you say is a virtue of the Japanese system) makes it hard to predict what might have happened, both evidence admissibility, verdict and sentence. Certainly unlikely he would have gotten a suspended sentence, if convicted.

UPDATE: Japan’s prosecutor reportedly repeatedly broke the law by leaking details of the case against Ghosn. Which pretty much corroborates both "wouldn't have gotten a fair trial" and "high-level political opposition".

UPDATE 2: RP was one of a handful of Nissan insiders who knew about the planned arrests beforehand: "I was called into Hari Nada's office…and told there was going to be a dramatic arrest. Arranged for maximum publicity... When you lie to someone, to get them back into a particular jurisdiction, so that you can have them arrested in a very public manner, that says a lot about what's going on." [0]

[0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58070929

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#306

Post by vuurmot »

1-more wrote: post #102
dghlsakjg wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Commodity cars are a dying breed. Not in Asia, the worlds biggest car market, and where the worlds biggest car making country is. More than anything, low end electric cars are MASSIVELY popular in China.

You read about the sub like $20K EVs in China and you think "maybe we're due to get belt and roaded here."

I think they are like $15k rather than sub $20k

Though I wonder if EVs are really all that good without the infrastructure.. With state of the potholes and electric infrastructure in most countries, can EVs hold up?

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#307

Post by stefanfisk »

vuurmot wrote: post #306
1-more wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You read about the sub like $20K EVs in China and you think "maybe we're due to get belt and roaded here."

I think they are like $15k rather than sub $20k Though I wonder if EVs are really all that good without the infrastructure.. With state of the potholes and electric infrastructure in most countries, can EVs hold up?

Why would potholes matter?

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#308

Post by VectorLock »

JamesSwift wrote: post #282
VectorLock wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet still bland and undifferentiated and a minivan.

I'd definitely disagree. Current Odysseys are absolutely a premium feel, especially in the higher trims. In fact, thats part of what sets them apart. The entire experience just feels so much nicer overall. The seats, the sound system, the performance, the thoughtful technology integration.. its a great car overall and is especially noticeable when compared apples-to-apples with other brands. source: I own a 2017 odys…

I test drove a 2023 Odyssey and Sienna and could barely tell them apart.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#309

Post by 6SixTy »

thmsths wrote: post #270
Toutouxc wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it doesnt hold true anymore due to electronics I'm only in my thirties, but I've been hearing this exact (!) sentence, about every single brand, throughout my entire life. Surprisingly, most of the brands are still fine and selling cars.

I keep hearing that too and it feels like a huge attribution error: the cars die because of the electronics because they are the new component with the shortest lifespan, so people blame them. Yet people fail to notice that the longevity of cars is on average, trending up while the amount of electronics in them has exploded. And it makes sense if you think about it for more than a second: which would you rather die f…

My theory is that a lot of auto mechanics are very mechanically minded, so if the problems start being electrical they don't have the equipment or the skill set to solve the issue beyond simple power.

I saw a video the other day where a Ram truck was having issues on the CAN bus after driving 33 miles and would settle down after 10-15 minutes. The tech was pretty much stumped and pretty much only figured it out by brute force. A capacitor on one of the CAN terminators failed making its capacitance higher than spec and screwed up the filtration harmonics after charging for those 33 miles.

There's also two sides to "reliable" where either it's simple to fix or never breaks down. Always keep that in mind whenever someone is talking about reliability because it's never obvious which definition someone has in mind.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#310

Post by namdnay »

mminer237 wrote: post #278
namdnay wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time the boss of Nissan didn’t do what they wanted, they put him in prison

Ghosn? He was charged for stealing millions of dollars from Nissan, but he fled the country before ever going to prison.

He was, but his corruption was clearly not the reason for his arrest. They were fine with him living like king until he went against the Nissan faction
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