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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#301

Post by mcmcmc »

applied_heat wrote: post #260
pbalau wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a naive way of looking at the problem. People that start working in banks, generally do that as a starting point. ATC is the end of the road for that career. Working in a bank is the start of a quite lucrative career, working as an ATC is the end. Indeed, we can offer more money to ATC, but there is not a lot, progression wise. Honestly, how would a junior ATC look like, compared with a senior?

Hopefully they don’t throw juniors on to the busiest runways in the country

Where else would they learn how to handle that kind of environment?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#302

Post by mcmcmc »

mp05 wrote: post #271
ryandrake wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would argue an ATC employee is worth every penny, but I also don't think there is a magical amount of money where you are going to suddenly double your pool of candidates willing to do this kind of work. These people are already very well compensated, and at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools. It wouldn't happen overnight, but surely if ATC had a similar compensation reputat…

> at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools The mass of unemployed CS grads?

What makes you think CS grads would be good candidates for a high stress job that requires excellent communication skills?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#303

Post by FireBeyond »

mullingitover wrote: post #193
brandonmenc wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea back then was a one-time amnesty in exchange for a secure border, which didn't happen. That's why Republicans are unwilling to budge a second time.

The idea was actually that employers would start to bear some responsibility for knowingly hiring illegal immigrants and thus creating an economic incentive for the migration. That didn't really happen. You see plenty of roundups of illegal immigrants, many/most are employed. What you don't see ever are roundups of their employers. If you want to actually see this problem solved immediately all you need to do is show…

Several years ago, there was a big immigration raid on a bunch of Tyson Chicken facilities.

They found about 900 undocumented workers.

Many of them gave evidence to officials, including written instructions from Tyson that advised them how to fill out employment, banking, taxation paperwork if they "didn't have documentation" and how to stay under the radar, i.e. Tyson didn't just know they might have undocumented workers, they were facilitating and actively enabling it.

In press conferences, when journalists asked "Are there any plans to investigate the company or issue fines or charges?", the response? "We are not considering that at this time." (And they never did.)

What it ended up looking like was that Tyson had been getting in some trouble, getting bad press for OSHA safety issues and perhaps had decided their undocumented workers were getting a little too angry about poor safety standards, making waves.

It would be entirely unsurprising to me if Tyson made a sweetheart deal with ICE that said "Hey, if you come to these plants, you'll get to make this big stink about undocumented workers" (and this was during the Trump administration), "but in return, can you leave us out of it?", very much shades of "Won't someone rid me of these meddlesome workers?"

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#304

Post by DangitBobby »

Graziano_M wrote: post #223
Khaine wrote: post #219

It should be noted that the FAA is facing a lawsuit alleging it discriminated against capable candidates[1]. If this is true, this surely must factor into the shortage of air traffic controllers. Admittedly, its a big if, and second even if it is true it is not clear to me how much of a factor this is in the shortage. [1] https://mslegal.org/cases/brigida-v-faa/

https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-full-story-of-the-fa...

It truly boggles my mind that Trump may have a legitimate basis for alleging that DEI policies have contributed to issues with ATC staffing.

> First, to liberals:

> I dislike Trump as much as anyone. Maybe I’m not supposed to play my hand like that while reporting a news article, but it’s true. I’ve wanted him out of politics since he entered the scene a decade ago, I voted against him three elections in a row, and I think he’s had a uniquely destructive effect within US politics. So I understand—please believe, I understand—just how disquieting it is to watch him stand up and blame DEI after a major tragedy.

> But Democrats did not handle it. The scandal occurred under the Obama administration. The FAA minimized it, obscured it, fought FOIA requests through multiple lawsuits, and stonewalled the public for years as the class action lawsuit rolled forward. The Trump administration missed it, too, for a term, and it’s likely most officials simply didn’t hear about it through the first few years of the Biden administration. No outlets left of Fox Business bothered to provide more than a cursory examination of it, and it never made much of a dent on the official record. Even when the New York Times ran a thoroughly reported article on air traffic controller shortages late last year, it never touched the scandal. It was possible to miss it.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#305

Post by mcmcmc »

analog31 wrote: post #300

I realize it's not a complete or immediate solution, but I wonder how much buses and trains would help. I think about this, in a town with a regional airport, ~ 100 miles from a couple of "hub" airports. Flying to the hub is often slower than driving when all things are considered, and with the risk of delays. A bus or train could work a lot better if the locations of the stations were coordinated, and if there was a…

Not sure why you’re getting downvoted (minus the false claim about buses and weather), if we don’t have enough have enough ATCs to satisfy air traffic demands the other level to pull is to decrease air traffic, either by offering substitutes for cross country travel or just straight up making it more expensive to fly. A flat per flight tax, say a flat ATC fee on each ticket, would marginally decrease demand for air travel and could be used to fund recruiting/retention programs for ATCs. Or call it a public transit fee and use it to subsidize high speed rail and other mass transit.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#306

Post by applied_heat »

mcmcmc wrote: post #301
applied_heat wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully they don’t throw juniors on to the busiest runways in the country

Where else would they learn how to handle that kind of environment?

By starting at smaller airports or less busy runways, getting comfortable, then stepping up to more demanding situations.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#309

Post by sweeter »

jerlam wrote: post #258
tw04 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you have listed above could be solved with money. Only 10% of applicants are physically and mentally qualified? Sounds like you need more applicants? Want to attract more applicants? Offer more compensation. The training and onboarding is incredibly long? Sounds like a doctor? Do you know why people go through the pain of becoming a doctor? Because they make a lot of money when they get through the other s…

> Sounds like a doctor? Not disagreeing, but the US also has a doctor shortage for at least a decade that it is seemingly unable to fix.

I mean going to school for 10 years only to be in debt for 100K-300K+ dollars, and not have a good idea of whether you will be able to pay that back... is a massive problem. Most countries don't have this issue, for example. They have an abundance of doctors and engineers, because people who actually want to do those things, are able to pursue those careers without financial investment. We are snubbing an entire generation of people and then acting surprised when the very obvious consequences of those actions start to come back to bite us. Its the definition of insanity.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#310

Post by D-Coder »

b112 wrote: post #144
ryandrake wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would argue an ATC employee is worth every penny, but I also don't think there is a magical amount of money where you are going to suddenly double your pool of candidates willing to do this kind of work. These people are already very well compensated, and at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools. It wouldn't happen overnight, but surely if ATC had a similar compensation reputat…

It's a different kind of pressure. Lives aren't on the line making trades, not like air travel. This lends to a different type of stress. Losing millions for your boss, losing your job != killing hundreds with a single mistake made in seconds.

Yeah, the closest I ever came to life-critical software was payroll projects.

I discovered by accident that people will notice a one-cent change in their paycheck.

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