Live data from Hacker News

Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

tomshardware.com

301–310 of 499 posts

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#301
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a somber write-up anywhere as to the future of EE in the West?

I don't know if there is a somber write up. But from what I have heard from a lot of people, is that jobs designing and making say PCB boards and electronic circuits just don't exist. They are all in Shenzhen. Those American firms that have American engineers still, seem to all involve flying to those factories to help fix problems, and are dead end jobs. At least thats my impression.

Having known several great EEs in FAANG who did exactly that job, sometimes paying Chinese income tax due to the length of their stays at the factory, that is my impression as well.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Options traders are paid well. It's still unproductive. You're just shifting around a bunch of numbers temporarily to make a bunch of money for someone and lose a bunch for someone else. Lots of shit we do is well-paid and unproductive. If, as a species, we eliminated all bullshit jobs, there's a good chance only 20-30% of the species would be working. Here in America, only around 50% of people are actually working.…

Options traders help with the efficient allocation of capital, which is actually very valuable to society.

They are mercenaries hired to maximize the share of the loot that goes to their employers.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#303

- Over 50% of the workers flew in from Taiwan to work on this plant and make these chips. - The chips still need to fly back to Taiwan to be packaged as there are no facilities here with such a capability. Made in america is a hard sell. But at least showing the glaring STEM field gap in the U.S. is a start to finally addressing the brain drain.

>50% of the workers flew in from Taiwan to work on this plant

I wonder what % of work they did.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are loads of highly qualified US engineers who would love to babysit enormously complicated industrial equipment for a living. But not for 50k, lol.

996 at 50K is less than Arizona's minimum wage.

The 996 should be regulated against, it's simply unreasonable

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'brain drain' (as you refer to it) stems from intelligent/motivated grads in the US for the last two decades (at least) pursuing more lucrative fields like finance and adtech (re: Google, Facebook). Or some pursue management route (attending big MBA schools and switching to management roles where they climb corporate ladder). In other words, there are not a lot of college/grad students who want to pursue traditio…

It's not even brain drain, America's dominance came from the fact that for nearly a century the brightest people in the world were willing to give up everything to come here. That is no longer the case. Today's Einstein probably isn't going to immigrate here.

The US didn't win World War 2, break the sound barrier, or put a man on the Moon only or primarily due to immigrant workers. We scoured the country's public school system for the sharpest young minds, sent them to institutions of higher learning with rigorous curricula, and found them positions in industry, government, or the military which made good use of their talent. Fetishizing the "nation of immigrants" narrative at the expensive of the native-born Americans who actually built most of this country's prosperity is, at best, ahistorical.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#306
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely true, as there weren’t EE jobs here. Now that we’re moving chip manufacturing back, and with programming job market being saturated, perhaps it will shift and EE will pay more due to being more in demand

I suspect the kinds of salaries that's possible in Silicon Valley only happens because: (A) Skills are fairly transferable. (B) There is a lot of employers competing for workers. (C) An awful lot of value is created along the way. If you specialize in some tiny part of chip manufacturing, there aren't many places you can transfer your skills. Even if, in the future, you have multiple chip vendors. They won't all use…

> Maybe it's not that simple. But few chip companies have to compete against startups for workers. And that probably won't change.

It seems like what EE needs is something similar to open source, so that does happen.

The way things like Google or AWS got started is they started with Linux and built something on top of it, so it could be a startup because they don't first have to build the world in order to make a contribution, and they're not building on top of someone else's land.

There isn't any reason that couldn't inherently work in EE. Get some universities or government grants to publish a fully-open spec for some processors that could be fabbed by TSMC or Intel. Not as good as the state of the art, but half as good anyway.

Now people have a basis for EE startups. You take the base design and tweak it some for the application, so that it's a startup-sized job instead of a multinational-sized job, and now you've got EE startups making all kinds of phone SoCs and NVMe drives and Raspberry Pi competitors and whatever else they think can justify a big enough production run to send it to a fab and sell it to the public.

An interesting license for this could be something along the lines of: You can make derivative works, but you have to release them under the same license within five years. In other words, you get five years to make money from this before it goes into the commons, which gives you the incentive to do it while keeping the commons rich so the next you can do it again tomorrow.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#307
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the main problem with hiring chip factory workers in Arizona was the factory just didnt pay enough for the long hours demanded. I looked up the median salary and its only 50k so I'm assuming it's not crazy skilled labor (e.g. brain drain). Taiwanese workers just seem more willing to do it.

50k is just a step above McDonalds these days in a lot of areas. Sure minimum wage might be $15k, but realistically nobody pays that little except in very rural areas (if you need a small number of low skilled employees a small rural town is a perfect spot to build - but if you need more than a small number they can't provide more at any price - you will pay more in the city but there are a lot more people around if…

McDonalds in Sunnyvale CA starts at 20/h, so 41k/year for the lowest role

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the main problem with hiring chip factory workers in Arizona was the factory just didnt pay enough for the long hours demanded. I looked up the median salary and its only 50k so I'm assuming it's not crazy skilled labor (e.g. brain drain). Taiwanese workers just seem more willing to do it.

I spoke to a Taiwanese person and apparently the salaries there are actually quite good, even by western standards (normal ones; not SF). The downside is they have very very long hours (996, barely any holiday, etc.).

Even China has ruled 996 illegal in 2021: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system#Legal_...

No one should be forced to work those kinds of hours. It's unreasonable to call Westerners/Americans lazy if they refuse to work 996.

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#309
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your overall point is probably right, but "tens of thousands of dollars of value in each gram" seems like an exaggeration. How much does one CPU weigh?

Order of magnitude it's within range. A single wafer for something higher end is worth tens of thousands of dollars. So whatever that weighs. It's not much.

But surely a wafer weighs more than a gram, no?

Re: Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab

#310
post #108
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a window where China will have it max capability to invade for the next few years. After that their population is going to start shrinking and every year will be harder than the next to invade.

But they don’t have energy independence or food security yet, which is kind of a hard requirement for an invasion. There’s not enough rail lines and gas pipelines from Russia to feed them with significant quantities of fossil fuels. Imagine how bad Russias invasion of Ukraine would’ve been without energy independence and food security. The invasion of Taiwan is an order of magnitude more difficult, and Taiwan now has…

I would expect an invasion to prompt the US navy to put up a blockade, disrupting China's oil supplies and generally making it very hard to keep their economy going. Admittedly, Trump is a wild card; he's random enough that it is hard to be sure what would happen.

I do not think China could survive a blockade.

Post reply on HN