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NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

congestion-pricing-tracker.com

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Re: NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

#301

Post by cosmic_quanta »

psychlops wrote: post #299
maxwellg wrote: post #11

I'm incredibly hopeful that NYC congestion pricing pays off in a big way - and that we start to see it in other cities across America. I really, really want congestion pricing in downtown SF. During rush hour, cars block the box and slow down busses, with cascading effects.

$9 per day isn't going to make anybody change their route. A round trip on the subway costs $5.80. IMHO, they would need to push higher than $50 to get drivers to blink.

The thing about congestion is that reducing the number of drivers slightly (e.g. 10-20%) could eliminate congestion by 100%! This is the same way it works for electrical congestion.

So you need pricing which will make a few people reconsider driving, who were on the edge of using public transit anyway.

Re: NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

#302

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

Xylakant wrote: post #222
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not popular on HN but this is the truth. Cars are fast, and they operate on your own schedule, and they don’t have to make a bunch of stops. There’s just no way transit can compete on travel time. Unless of course, a city decides to purposely underbuild roads relative to population (like what is induced with increased density) or purposely destroys car infrastructure, as San Francisco is doing with absurd speed…

The problem is that throughput per lane of cars is very limited in comparison to everything else. A single car line can transport about 2000 persons per hour. A single bus lane about 9000, a single bike lane 14000 - if you dedicate the space to pedestrians, we’re at 19000 and light rail goes beyond that at 22000 and more. (See page 3, https://www.static.tu.berlin/fileadmin/www/10002265/News/Pre... , German only) This…

Or just keep density lower and match the car lanes capacity.

Re: NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

#304

Post by [deleted] »

bluesnews wrote: post #160
throwaway48476 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People seek agency and don't consider traffic deaths to be the same as random assaults. It's for the same reason most people think they'd do well in a fight. They value their agency and assume they would be able to prevent it.

Pedestrians outside of cars don't have agency to prevent injury to themselves from cars.

[deleted]

Re: NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

#305

Post by joejohnson »

maxwellg wrote: post #11

I'm incredibly hopeful that NYC congestion pricing pays off in a big way - and that we start to see it in other cities across America. I really, really want congestion pricing in downtown SF. During rush hour, cars block the box and slow down busses, with cascading effects.

NY is probably the only city where this could work because it’s the only proper American city that has a real metro system. Every other city will require major upgrades to have modern public transportation, and the density isn’t there in most American cities that were designed around the car.

Re: NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

#306

Post by Moomoomoo309 »

gotoeleven wrote: post #67
woodruffw wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because they turned it down[1]. New Jersey has decided that their strategy is going to be to dig their heels in and hope for a supportive administration, rather than plan for the next century of growth in the economic region that powers their state. [1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2024/12/18/nj-refusing-generous-...

Sweet lord have you ever tasted a peach grown in new jersey? What the hell is going on in that state.

Most superfund sites of any state, decades of chemical industry and now pharma, and also peaches not really liking how north NJ is, mostly. Jersey's a wacky place, for sure, but believe me, the politics in New Jersey get even crazier than this due to boroughitis.

Re: NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

#307

Post by alamortsubite »

deanc wrote: post #230
Twirrim wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been highly successful in London. Less congestion, better air quality, incentivises the most disruptive things like heavy good vehicles to deliver out of rush hour reducing impact on other traffic etc.

My ancedotal experience of driving around London once or twice a year for the last ten years is there hasn't been a huge change. I don't trust TFL data on this as the authorities are incentivised to report figures to support the gathering of the additional revenue stream. At least this study [1] suggests a mild improvement but interestingly replacing one pollutant with another (due to diesel exemptions). In my opinio…

You have to go back ~20 years to when congestion pricing was introduced. To my eyes, the change has been dramatic.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-02-what-are-the-ma...

Re: NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

#308

Post by Xylakant »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #302
Xylakant wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that throughput per lane of cars is very limited in comparison to everything else. A single car line can transport about 2000 persons per hour. A single bus lane about 9000, a single bike lane 14000 - if you dedicate the space to pedestrians, we’re at 19000 and light rail goes beyond that at 22000 and more. (See page 3, https://www.static.tu.berlin/fileadmin/www/10002265/News/Pre... , German only) This…

Or just keep density lower and match the car lanes capacity.

2000 people per hour is really not that much. And reducing density will not buy you much - density itself doesn't mean anything. If you have a suburb with 50 000 people living there and an office park with 25 000 people working there (both not particularly high numbers), you get a traffic flow of 25 000 people moving both ways, during rush hour. That's grossly simplifying things, but you should be able to get the point.

What would buy you much is mixed neighborhoods (aka: the 15 minute city - everything you need for your daily life is within 15 minutes walking distance), because this will eliminate many trips. But mixed neighborhoods work better with higher density - because a supermarket in a low density place cannot be within 15 minutes walking distance.

Also: This is about NYC. How would you even go about reducing Manhattens density to a level where no road is used by less than 2000 (or 4000) people per hour during rush hour?

Re: NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

#309

Post by Xylakant »

thereisnospork wrote: post #244
Xylakant wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that throughput per lane of cars is very limited in comparison to everything else. A single car line can transport about 2000 persons per hour. A single bus lane about 9000, a single bike lane 14000 - if you dedicate the space to pedestrians, we’re at 19000 and light rail goes beyond that at 22000 and more. (See page 3, https://www.static.tu.berlin/fileadmin/www/10002265/News/Pre... , German only) This…

The problem is utilization: you can't get 9000 persons per hour via busing in most places, weighting by area. Fixed routing scales poorly compared to cars (or bikes which have their own drawbacks) trying to match many-to-many riders-to-destinations.

What's "most places?" This is a traffic flow that's achieved routinely in about every medium size european city. And the way population is distributed, most people live in comparatively dense population centers, across the world.

Re: NYC Congestion Pricing Tracker

#310

Post by axelfontaine »

screye wrote: post #300
jmyeet wrote: post #25

I happened to be living in London when congestion pricing was brought in and the difference on day 1 in the West End was like night and day. I believe it's never gone back to the pre-congestion pricing levels. I fully expect similar in Manhattan. The social media response has been particularly interesting. Predictably, there are a lot of non-NYCers who simply object to the slightest inconvenience to driving in any fo…

All studies show that free public transit is a bad idea. There is a reason no country provides it. People mis-treat free things. When you ask them to pay for it, it enforces civic contracts. With contactless terminals in place, a free MTA benefits no one. It's also difficult to get additional funding to improve something that's free. An MTA monthly pass is 130$. That's the price of a single uber round-trip to JFK. NY…

Luxembourg has free public transit.
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