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Cargo Airships Are Happening

elidourado.com

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Re: Cargo Airships Are Happening

#301
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I'll play. I assume those sensors are always powered and never malfunction and so, now the train is stopped in a vacuum. What now? How do we get the people out, and all the trains behind them now also stopping. If the tracks are below ground, where is the nearest valve that can open? Given some parameters to chatgpt, because I can't be bothered to do the math myself, it takes ~5 minutes to fill a 500m section w…

You stretched 500m to 5km but kept only one valve. Why? And presuming that whole wagon doesn't burst because a couple of bullet holes, is it unrealistic for onboard pressurized tanks to keep up with escaping air while outside is getting pressurized? Do you mind sharing the parameters you fed GPT?

> You stretched 500m to 5km but kept only one valve. Why?

This is the worst case scenario by assuming only one valve is functioning. Theoretically, even that could break, but I'll assume there are enough redundant valves that at least one will always work.

> is it unrealistic for onboard pressurized tanks to keep up with escaping air while outside is getting pressurized?

It depends on the size of the hole. A bullet hole for an average train car size would take hours to become deadly and could easily be corrected by onboard air (depending on how much air is onboard), but a gun isn't going to cause a bullet sized hole. It is quite violent. Something like a catastrophic door failure, or derailment, would deplete the oxygen in less than a second. Basically, the inverse of oceangate; instead of everyone imploding, everyone would explode. Since I also suspect there will be valves on the vessel to handle releasing small amounts of gas enroute (to allow adjusting internal pressures to match destination atmospheric pressures), this could also get stuck open.

I suspect, if anyone were to actually do this, they would go for low pressure (like high altitude) instead of a vacuum. The speed of sound is so high, they could easily reach it in the tunnel. Further, people just need oxygen masks instead of dying a horrible death.

Nobody has mentioned this while following along with all the US hyperloop failures, so it is clear nobody has really tried engineering this thing, IMHO, and why I said my original comment about it. If someone were actually engineering the system, these are all pretty obvious things. As described in the original 1800's systems and by Elon, it is an impossible system. I used to think about this thing all the time in the '90s, so maybe I've thought too much about it.

I'm also curious about other issues, like maintaining low atmosphere or a vacuum (these were the key failures in older attempts in the late 1800's) in the tunnel in an energy efficient way. If it can't be kept, things will deteriorate at an accelerated rate, introducing catastrophic failures early in the system lifetime. There is also maintenance and inspections to consider. Not to mention that underground is already dealing with increased pressure from the earth, it also has to support it while maintaining a vacuum. I suspect above-ground tubes are probably far cheaper to build and maintain, but at that point, you might as well build a train.

Since moving to Europe, I can go pretty much anywhere in Europe in a day. Heck, I can get on a train this evening, sleep in a bed on the train, and wake up on the other side of Europe tomorrow morning for breakfast, for a little more than the cost of an average hotel room. Trains are great, well understood, and pretty fast. The problem the US has (as seen with the California high speed rail), is that they 'want it to be all US based' instead of hiring experts from across the ocean who work on these things every day. The US has no experience building high speed networks, which is part of the reason the hyperloop even has a chance at getting money. It's a collaborative Dunning-Kruger effect.

I think if the US can get to the point where they can develop high speed networks, in general, then stepping up to something like the hyperloop is a good idea. Other nations are still working on the hyperloop and they are making good progress, but I'm not as familiar with their details.

Re: Cargo Airships Are Happening

#302
post #6

The (biggest) problem that keeps airships from practical use is that they are huge sails. Big sails mean even small amounts of wind can be powerful forces acting on the airship. In the air a big push from the wind might be safely managed, but if you're near anything solid such as the ground, you can get smashed to bits. To safely operate a suitably efficient (large) airship, we'd need both huge specialized docks with…

Is there any evidence that this is really a problem? Zeppelins were in use for decades completely safely, as are modern airships.

Re: Cargo Airships Are Happening

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... with unsustainable CO2 emissions. We need to be ramping down fossils use rapidly.

Do you think Hydrogen is free or something? Worse, is that Hydrogen comes from water (at least that is the current cheapest way), meaning you get Oxygen and Hydrogen from it, but if you let the Hydrogen go, it will escape the atmosphere and be whisked away by solar wind (same with Helium). Then, you have just Oxygen, which is a green-house gas. At least the ships release other chemicals in their emissions that decrea…

Oxygen is not a greenhouse gas lmao

Re: Cargo Airships Are Happening

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, sure, it is possible to create it, but it is impossible to make any sort of safety guarantees. Right, because cars and planes and trains and boats and bicycles and footpaths and airships all famously have 100% perfect safety track records, right?

They have mitigations. If a plane breaks down, it can glide. If a regular vehicle breaks down, it can be moved off. If a train breaks down, people can just get off the train. On a hyperloop, where are they going to go when surrounded by a vacuum? What about whatever is behind them also waiting? There are no mitigations and the only option is death. Maybe you can repressurize the tubes ... assuming there is power to d…

> Maybe you can repressurize the tubes ... assuming there is power to do so

Fail-open air valves are a thing.

> to evacuate people

Emergency exits are a thing.

> If a window breaks

Why would a shuttle in an underground vacuum tube have windows?

> The main problem and you can't engineer around it

Pretty sure people said the same thing about most of the modes of transportation I mentioned above.

Re: Cargo Airships Are Happening

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same problem exists underground, the weakest points being the stations themselves which can be bombed. Few if any modes of transportation are safe when bombs come into play.

Blowing up an empty train station doesn't kill everyone on a train.

...which is why they don't bomb empty train stations. I'm not saying it's just like a train.

Re: Cargo Airships Are Happening

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GP asked about burning fuel. But in the case of electric airships, you can run an electric condenser, extracting atmospheric water vapor.

This idea of extracting water from air keeps coming back, but every time someone tries it, they learn of the same thermodynamic limits. It is extremely energy-intensive to extract water from the air, and it only really works if the climate is humid enough that there is water in the air to extract. This is exactly what a dehumidifier does, and the off-the-shelf version you can buy at home depot is no more than 5-10x w…

Or you try to capture water that's already condensed... cloud droplets.

Re: Cargo Airships Are Happening

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? In what world is a hyperloop going maybe 700mph comparable to a spacecraft reentering from orbit at 17,000mph? Also, maybe there's something I'm missing but spacecraft can and do renter from orbit intact, thus proving that this problem is solvable even when the forces at play are orders of magnitude greater. Apply your safety argument to passenger airliners or even ordinary trains and you'll see that they are al…

> In what world is a hyperloop going maybe 700mph comparable to a spacecraft reentering from orbit at 17,000mph? In that case, the air can just "go around" the space craft. Try pushing down a syringe with the end capped. Bet you can't do it. Now imagine that at 700 mph; you will get a lot of heat and destruction. No heat shielding will save you. > Apply your safety argument to passenger airliners or even ordinary tra…

You have a strange idea of what a hyperloop is. nobody says it has to be sealed around the edges like a syringe plunger.

Re: Cargo Airships Are Happening

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... with unsustainable CO2 emissions. We need to be ramping down fossils use rapidly.

Ships are pretty good emissions wise because if the sheer amount of cargo they carry, even with burning the absolutely worst crap they can

Shipping sector is a huge co2 emitter and this claims to cut "fuel burn and carbon emissions by 75 percent without any sustainable fuel breakthroughs".

As we ramp down fossils we this kind of thing would enable eg international agreements to limit and progressively lower shipping sector co2 credits over time.

We need to do this for all co2 emitter sectors since all the slices of the pie are fairly small so focusing on eg top-3 doesn't solve the problem.

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